What’s Your Ism? Ep 4 feat. Sagarika Ghose on liberalism, BJP, media

Sagarika Ghose, the journalist-turned-politician who recently made headlines for joining the Trinamool Congress, is set to contest the Rajya Sabha polls. Has she abandoned the journalism front? How does she look at Hindutva? What made her pull out of mainstream media?

In this candid conversation with Sudipto Mondal for What’s your ism? – a podcast by The News Minute and Newslaundry – Ghose talks about the BJP, media, Hindutva ideology, liberalism and intellectuals in Indian politics.

On joining the opposition at a time it has “no hope in hell”, Ghose says there is “no space left for the kind of writing I want to do”, and the “danger” to constitutional values is “far beyond” what she could do as a journalist.

She says the mainstream media has been “captured by the Modi government” and has become a purveyor of hatred, bigotry, and “trumpeter of the regime”. “The mainstream media runs counter to what journalism should be”.

Ghose further speaks about why Hindutva is anti-constitutional, the “glass club” of men in newsrooms, diversity in media, significance of opposition in a democracy, and why intellectuals don’t make good politicians.

Watch.

. Sagarika Ghose

Sudipto Mondal: [00:00:00] The most influential ism in the country today appears to be Hindutva.

It has taken a long time for this ideology to come of age. But what happened to the other ideological movements that began in the early 20th century? The RSS will turn a hundred years old next year, but so will the Communist Party of India. We

-: will always be together. We are one. Jai Hind! Jai Hind! Jai Hind!

Jai Sriram!

Sudipto Mondal: Ambedkarism. Marxism. Liberalism. Dravidianism. Feminism, Gandhiism. What role are these great big isms of the 20th century playing in the 21st century? What relevance do they have today? I'm an atheist in the same way as I'm an a leprechaun. Why have there been casteism existing in the country still today?

-: Feminism, by definition, is the belief that men and women should have equal rights. The nature of the system is to be as mean and rotten [00:01:00] as you can, uh, to try to, uh,

Sudipto Mondal: The national elections are around the corner and what better time than now to talk about isms. I'm Sudeeptoh Mandal and welcome to this special election series of What's Your Ism.

Today we are going to try and understand the ism of the Trinamool Congress Party's Rajya Sabha nominee. Hi, Sagarika.

Sagarika Ghose: Hi, Chidito. How

Sudipto Mondal: are you doing?

Sagarika Ghose: Nice to be with you.

Sudipto Mondal: Nervous? This is your first big interview as a politician?

Sagarika Ghose: I'm looking forward to it. Looking forward

Sudipto Mondal: to it. I'm nervous too. This is a new

Sagarika Ghose: medium for me.

Sudipto Mondal: Right. Yeah, so you'll help me, I'm hoping. Of

Sagarika Ghose: course. I mean, uh, let's just chat and keep the conversation going. Yeah,

Sudipto Mondal: yeah. So the show is not about your alliance choices. It's not about the real hustle bustle of the politics right now, you know, in the build up to the election. It's about isms, right? So we're going to try and discuss some theoretical aspects and things like that.

Of course, I'd love that.

Sagarika Ghose: Yeah, [00:02:00]

Sudipto Mondal: but first things first, I mean, the first ism that we have been practicing for so many years, you for 30, me for close to 20, Journalism. Journalism, right. Journalism. And you've completely abandoned us. You're leaving. Why?

Sagarika Ghose: Not at all, actually. I, uh, I continue to, uh, write my columns, but I have left full time journalism, uh, and I've chosen to join a political party.

And the question is, why did I do this? Uh, Sudipto, of late, I have been distancing myself from the newsroom, uh, since 2020. I've actually pulled out of the newsroom. I was in Times of India as a, uh, Consulting editor I've pulled out. I was writing my books and my columns and because frankly What is happening to mainstream media now?

I hasten to add mainstream media not you guys in the digital space Can I read out what you said about the

Sudipto Mondal: mainstream media? Yes, there is little space anymore for quality journalism what I consider good writing Writing that interrogates, provokes, [00:03:00] communicates ideas. This is your piece when you justified getting into politics.

Yes,

Sagarika Ghose: I believe that. That mainstream media today has been captured by the Modi government. I think what has happened to mainstream media is a catastrophe. Uh, just recently you may have seen that the, uh, major news channels were censured actually by the National Broadcasting Authority for spreading hate.

Uh, I think, uh, mainstream media has become a propaganda machine. Uh, it's become a purveyor of hate. It's become a purveyor of bigotry. And it's become a, uh, uh, uh, a outrider and trumpeter of the regime. And this runs counter to them. to what I believe journalism should be. I believe journalism should be anti establishment, should ask questions, should interrogate, and there's no space left for the kind of writing that I want to do.

I want to do questioning, interrogating, writing of the government, any government, whichever [00:04:00] government, you know, this is, this is party agnostic. Whichever government is in power, the journalist's job is to question that government. And do fair, accurate journalism, right? But today, I just find that journalism has become, mainstream journalism, I hasten to add again, has become propaganda, has become purveyor of hate.

And the time for non alignment is over, Sudipto. The time for non alignment is over. Because something very dark is happening to our republic. The values of the Indian republic are being dismantled, it's being changed. Hindutva, which is the governing ideology of the, of the time of the government, I believe is profoundly anti constitutional.

And the basis of the project of 1947, the constitutional values, uh, uh, we created in 1947, I believe these are the In serious danger, and the dangers go far beyond anything that I could have [00:05:00] addressed as a journalist. Uh, you know, simply writing my articles or writing my books. I felt that that was, you know, it was, it was, I was doing, I was raising my voice, but the space for that was continuously shrinking.

That is why I have not said goodbye to journalism in the sense I have not said goodbye to writing. I continue to write. It's my core capacity. But writing

Sudipto Mondal: will now be, what, how do you put it, I don't want to use a strong word, but do you think it will be colored by the fact

Sagarika Ghose: that I'm in the opposition. It will

Sudipto Mondal: always be taken with a pinch of salt now, no?

I don't think so. Credibility will be like, you know, but I don't think

Sagarika Ghose: so because I'm a member of the opposition and as an opposition opposition from

Sudipto Mondal: an opposition

Sagarika Ghose: point of view, I will be voicing the views of the opposition and, you know, remember, I have not joined the ruling party. I've joined the opposition at a time when the opposition supposedly doesn't have a hope in hell in 2024.

That is what is being said. But I want to keep alive the questioning the, uh, the interrogation, uh, This sort of examination of this government as a voice in the [00:06:00] opposition and lend my shoulder to the wheel of the opposition's cause because I believe that that space has to be protected because you see the opposition space is protected, then other spaces get protected down the line, then journalism gets protected, then NGOs get protected, then civil society gets protected.

But if the opposition dies, Democracy dies.

Sudipto Mondal: I get that. But can I, I mean, uh, from, from a journalist to a journalist, right? Yeah. Can I, can I, can I say that I'm a little disappointed that Okay. Fine. The, the legacy media is what it is. It has been terrible. But one could argue that it has always been like that the legacy media has been No.

To

Sagarika Ghose: this extent. Should it not? Not to this extent. I'll

Sudipto Mondal: let that go. But I'm just saying you could have come onto to our side, right? Yeah. Which is. That's a fair

Sagarika Ghose: point. That's a fair point. I mean, I think you guys.

Sudipto Mondal: You saw, uh, what we've been doing, right? Like, did you see the Karnataka elections? These five outlets, we came together.

I saw that. And I also think

Sagarika Ghose: that I lured you for this, uh, story you've done on the 30 forms, which have been for ED, [00:07:00] which have been approved by the ED and IT and then forced to donate to the BJP. So I think, you

Sudipto Mondal: know, what's, sorry to cut you there. Yeah. What I love about that exercise is that there were so many people behind the scenes working on that story.

The byline is what you see as the tip of the iceberg really. So many people's hard work, you know, it went into it both in terms of the sources, some other journalists who had also worked behind the scenes. You know, there's so much excitement now. The tragedy, I would say still, is that we don't have that captive audience.

The newspaper is not landing with a thud outside your door today. But I think you

Sagarika Ghose: guys are doing a fantastic job. And you should

Sudipto Mondal: have joined us, no?

Sagarika Ghose: I'm too

Sudipto Mondal: old. I'm too old. I'm going to

Sagarika Ghose: be 60 this year. Wow. You're supposed to say you don't

Sudipto Mondal: look it. No, not at all. Good, good, good. Yes, yes, yes.

Sagarika Ghose: So, I'm 59. I've had over three decades in journalism.

And my medium is, you know, ultimately the newspaper. I was a newspaper reporter and a newspaper writer and an op ed writer for years. And then I joined journalism as a [00:08:00] mainstream news anchor. I love that. But you know, my heart is in print and, but these are my mediums, you know, television and, and mainstream print.

So I don't have the technical know how. I saw Dhruv Rathee's, um, incredible video on print. On democracy, you know, I really had a lot of admiration for that, but you know, it's not my medium. I don't have the technical know how for that. I don't have the skills to be as effective on a digital platform, perhaps as you guys can be.

Um, for me at this stage in my life, uh, I thought then given the skills that I have of, uh, continuously opposing, uh, religion based nationalism, continuously opposing Hindu thought. The Trinamool stands as a bulwark against, uh, the BJP in Bengal in the East. I thought I would be best utilized in the political opposition.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. We'll come to that part. Yeah. Okay. There will be an opportunity for you to speak about it. [00:09:00] Sure. But I still want to like, because you're a senior journalist, there's a lot young people can still learn from you. And things like that. You know, one of the things, I suppose your generation, you of women journalists did was to introduce that female gaze.

Sagarika Ghose: Yeah, yes, yes, yes. So I am talking

Sudipto Mondal: about if you are in that age category, I mean, my own former editor, we just spoke about Parvati, Yes, yes, yes. you know, this whole generation of women who came and said, hey, uncle, step aside. Yeah. You know, what, can you talk about the female gaze? So what, what, what in your gaze allowed your journalism to grow?

Do you think your gaze as a woman, uh, journalist

Sagarika Ghose: impacted your

Sudipto Mondal: journalism in any way?

Sagarika Ghose: You know, apart from the, from being a woman, I think that was important as a woman journalist. I think we shattered a lot of glass ceilings in my time. Uh, I joined journalism in 1991. Uh, in the times of India where, you know, the, the big beats, the defense and foreign affairs was all done by the men and the women had to do health and education because those were seen as [00:10:00] Not important beats when they are actually very important beats.

Um, but TV changed all of that, you know, and, uh, I think today when I see the young, you know, when in CNN, IBM, when I used to see the young female reporters, I was full of admiration because it wouldn't just hoist the camera and it would be off. Just like any other guy. Uh, I think we, we shattered the glass ceiling.

I don't think we've completely shattered the glass ceiling because I think we'd still find it difficult to find a woman editor in chief. You know, you go up, you go up, you go up, and then you stop. My

Sudipto Mondal: boss is one of them.

Sagarika Ghose: In the digital space, it's very different. But in mainstream media, it's very difficult to find, say, uh, either a woman, uh, uh, editor in chief.

The top job. Or a female news anchor at 9, 9 p. m. is the big slot and very difficult to find a woman there. Even

Sudipto Mondal: now they are not. There are very

Sagarika Ghose: few. I think there's one or two. Um, but, but, you know. And one and a

Sudipto Mondal: half of them is a right winger.

Sagarika Ghose: Let's not even go there. So, uh, I don't consider that journalism, even.

So, uh, uh, [00:11:00] my point is that. You know, we did shatter many glass ceilings because we went everywhere and, you know, to me the joy of being out in the field was unparalleled with your notepad, you're going out there, you're talking to people, you're traveling from place to place. It's exhilarating. So, but I think what I also was doing, uh, was, uh, consciously or unconsciously at first, keeping alive certain values that I instinctively Wanted to constantly defend.

Right. Secularism, multi-faith plural. India, uh, the belief in the individual, the sort of struggle for social justice of individuals. I mean, these were, and

Sudipto Mondal: you think, you think it has something to do with the fact that your, your instincts are feminist?

Sagarika Ghose: Yeah. My instincts are feminist. My instincts are, uh, are, are, uh, towards social justice.

Uh, I am a, a constitutionalist. I read and re-read the Constitution of India several times when I was a student. Uh, and I believe it's a supreme document. It's, it's, it's a real, [00:12:00] it's a, it's a real blueprint of progress, you know, and I would recommend everybody read the Indian constitution. So I, I consciously unconsciously kept these values constantly alive, or I was trying to keep these values alive.

And I think that made my voice, uh, maybe provocative, uh, maybe it made it, uh, it made it sometimes maybe strident. Uh, but, uh, for me, uh, this, these values was, were very important, and I think that's what, that's what marked, uh, marked me out. But I was, you know, throughout I was very fiercely independent. I did not want to align with any political party because I didn't find that, uh, constitutional values were being upheld anywhere.

Sudipto Mondal: So there's, there are values that need to be upheld for the larger nation, and there are values that need to be upheld for the smaller nation. in the profession inside the newsroom. Yes. Right? Totally. And, uh, you know, we talk about the safety of, uh, vulnerable groups inside a very high pressure environment in a very, uh, volatile, you know, workspace, which is a newsroom.

Around [00:13:00] your generation of women are the ones who also started organizing, there were formations like the NWM. Right? We started

Sagarika Ghose: organizing. We used to be very How did

Sudipto Mondal: that, how did that come to the aid of women in newsrooms? Do you think that was a very important phase? 90s, early 2000s where women journalists.

I think women

Sagarika Ghose: journalists began to increasingly speak out about, uh, you know, more equitable working conditions. Uh, for example, You want to

Sudipto Mondal: give a shout out to NWM in that

Sagarika Ghose: regard? Yes, absolutely.

Sudipto Mondal: NWMI and that whole formation. All of them, yes, yes, yes. You all of that. Yes, yes, yes,

Sagarika Ghose: absolutely. Uh, and, um, I, I think that, you know, I think that, uh, for, for, for my, I mean, for in my time.

We campaigned a lot, for example, for working mothers. I was a working mother. I had two little kids and, uh, you know, I used to come, we used to come across what I call the glass club. Okay. There's the glass ceiling, but there's also the glass club. You know what the glass club is, right? The glass club is.

What they do after work when the [00:14:00] men go out and raise the

Sudipto Mondal: glass. So this

Sagarika Ghose: go to the press club, the watering holes, or they go to the various places and they sit all night or late into the night raising their glasses, which we can't do because we have to go home and take care of the kids. And in any case, we can't do it because you'll be misunderstood and stereotyped.

So, uh, that is the time, you know, after work socialization, which men are able to do creates a lot of exclusive bonding and linkages and exclusive clubs and they sort of shut you

Sudipto Mondal: out. Tu mera yaar hai kind of.

Sagarika Ghose: Tu mera yaar hai. Tu mera drinking buddy hai. Drinking buddy. You can never be anybody's drinking buddy.

Right? You can't be. So because you're cut out of these informal networks, you find yourself getting more and more marginalized. As you, as you go up, so we, you know, we used to find what, one of the things I used to campaign for is, you know, more social spaces between, uh, between, uh, in works, uh, working environments, you know, instead of you going and doing your gender neutral, which are gender, instead of you going and doing glass club at night, [00:15:00] let's have more social spaces where, you know, we, we sh shatter boundaries between each other so that I'm not left out of your exclusive class.

This was a way in which, uh, This was one of the things I used to try and talk about a lot and I hope it's working, but I still think the glass club So,

Sudipto Mondal: I mean, I'm an, I'm an admirer of this generation of women who kind of opened up these spaces and things like that. But then, uh, there is also this criticism that, uh, you know, they didn't do enough for people whose reality is intersected with theirs, right?

For other marginalized groups inside the newsroom, uh, we were talking about, uh, let's say Muslims, Dalits, Adivasis. No, I raised my voice for Muslims.

Sagarika Ghose: Muslim communities all the time. No no, I'm saying in

Sudipto Mondal: terms of newsroom, In terms of newsroom. Newsroom diversity. Right. Right. Uh, somehow, you know, you, these, these, these experiences you speak of, you know, essentially it is social exclusion, right?

Sagarika Ghose: Yeah.

Sudipto Mondal: What is it? What if, if, I [00:16:00] mean, if people are going to get very angry when you say intersectionality, but it is a fact that what is. That's the very basic common ground between, uh, a Muslim or a Dalit and a woman,

-: you know, which is that you're socially

Sudipto Mondal: excluded.

-: You are.

Sudipto Mondal: Right? To that extent, you know, there is a sense that there could have been more from your side because you understood this.

We understood exclusion and we fought exclusion. We

Sagarika Ghose: fought exclusion. But you know, I think we were too busy waging our own battle. It was such an uphill battle. Uh, and I think, you know, more. More solidarities could have been built, more connections could have been built between other excluded groups. Uh, that didn't happen because a lot of the time, you know, as a journalist, as you know, a lot of the time you're just basically racing to the deadline.

I mean, you're, you're running to file your story, you're running to get your source, you're running to cultivate your source. And the newsroom kind of takes a backseat to what you're trying to do at work all the time. So you're [00:17:00] 24 by seven and TV journalism, you're 24 by seven running. So, uh, you don't spend as much time in the, you know, managing the newsroom or thinking about the newsroom, perhaps as you should, but I think a lot more effort is being made now, which I think, I think there is in, aren't, aren't you guys a lot more diverse?

Sudipto Mondal: Yeah, that's true. You, you, you guys are much more diverse employers and, uh,

Sagarika Ghose: I mean, I love that about. politics, for example, you know, I mean, the sheer diversity of people that you meet and who are involved in the political process, it's unbelievable. I mean, you learn to form connections with people who are not like you, who perhaps don't speak the language that you do, but you can still become friends with them and march together for a cause.

And, you know, I find that That is, to me, very exhilarating.

Sudipto Mondal: But you still concede that there has been a failing. But I do. I concede that, you

Sagarika Ghose: know, that the, A, the pressures of journalism, plus, you know, a lot of it comes down to the owners, to the proprietors, and what kind of [00:18:00] policies they follow.

Sudipto Mondal: You partly owned CNN.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was never,

Sagarika Ghose: I was never an owner. Rajdeep, my husband was one of the promoters, but we were never, uh, owners of the, of the channel as such. Okay. Uh, and, uh, MCN and IBN, yes, I mean, have much more, perhaps could have been done for, uh, uh, for, uh, diversity in the newsroom. But again, you know, when you're busy setting up a channel, you're running the channel, you're standing up to pressure, you're trying to do journalism.

And in TV, as you said, you're running all the time. Yeah. We didn't prioritize the. But I have to say, but I have to say that I, no, that I, I have to say that we did actually have a very diverse, uh, group of people. I mean, if you look at the CNN, IBM of the early, of the early, uh, avatar, uh, it was, you know, if you look at our anchors, if you look at our reporters, it was diverse.

Sudipto Mondal: Diverse by way of gender and religion, I would say. A few Muslims here and there, a few Christians.

Sagarika Ghose: Religion. Uh, there was, uh, there was, [00:19:00] uh, there was also community, there was also community. I don't want to go into any names. Uh, you know, there, there were, uh, there were certainly, uh, there were certainly the people from the Bahujan Samaj represented.

Yeah, yeah.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. Interesting. Now, uh, I mean, speaking of that, so I, I see that you have throughout your career got rolled a lot, you know, throughout , throughout Yeah. At least by, from the time you got into television as a media, right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, I don't know, I don't want to make you uncomfortable.

How, but how do you deal with accusations of being a npo? You know, that, uh, you know, you come from privilege, you come from an illustrious background. Arre, you know, you have to account for your privilege. So, there are two things. One, when it comes in a very offensive way, but then there is sometimes a genuine call to acknowledge that privilege.

How do Because knowing you, you do.

Sagarika Ghose: I do, I do, except I come from privilege. But my family is [00:20:00] self made. We are professionals. My father was a senior bureaucrat. My aunt is a, was, my former, my late aunt was a diplomat. My other aunt is a former judge of the Supreme Court and we are a self made educated Bengali Bhadralok family.

That does come with privileges. But these are not privileges of money. These are not privileges of, uh, of, uh, sort of crony capitalism or privileges of politics, so that I came into a family which had, which is a political dynasty. I don't consider myself a dynast at all. I had to slog all my life through academics.

I was academically very bright. I did very well. And I won a scholarship to Oxford. I, um, I studied at Oxford. I did well there. I got a good degree and I came back and joined journalism. Now, uh, I can't deny that I come from a. educated Bengali family, but, uh, my parents and my, uh, my, you know, my parents don't come from from privilege.

I mean, my grandparents were certainly not, [00:21:00] uh, uh, wealthy or, uh, you know, in that sense. So in

Sudipto Mondal: India, you could be wealthy and you could still not be allowed inside the temple. Right. Yeah, you could be wealthy. So terms, so terms of

Sagarika Ghose: cast? Yes. In terms of cast. I am you

Sudipto Mondal: what? . That's the, the community belong? No, I'm Kaa.

Kaa. Okay. Kaa. Okay.

Sagarika Ghose: So, uh, Coolen, kata, whatever. I didn't even know about this. So I don't identify with a birth based category. You know, I, we won't,

Sudipto Mondal: but people will identify you as people

Sagarika Ghose: identify me as that. And so, yes. Perhaps, you know, I am, uh, um. What you call upper caste, but you know, they don't. And though that is a privileged category.

I recognize that, but on the other hand, it's not as if I didn't have to work hard on my life. I've always had to work hard and prove myself. Nothing was given to me on a platter. I'm still writing. I'm still writing books. I'm still producing. I'm still producing content. But yes, I mean, I had access to English language education.

I had access to a very good education, but then I got into St. Stephen's on merit, on my own merit. [00:22:00] Uh, and, uh, you know, I did very well in my board exam. So I'm actually quite confident that I, uh, I'm self made.

Sudipto Mondal: Self made, okay. Uh, so, So, that journalism thing, we'll now move on, okay, from journalism to real politics, because that's where you're at right now, and you said a couple of interesting things about the opposition, you know, which makes me wonder then, where are we, we're also kind of fighting a good fight, because you said, you know, uh, what, uh, The opposition is the last gasp of Indian democracy.

Sagarika Ghose: Mm hmm.

Sudipto Mondal: Right? I

Sagarika Ghose: think so.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. But look at the opposition, no? Look at the state in which it is. Uh, because when you say it's the last gasp of this thing, I mean, they are still playing their little, uh, inside games, they are still, uh, not clear ideologically. Right, I went to, uh, cover the Chhattisgarh elections, right, and here you have the [00:23:00] party which is supposed to take on Hindutva, doing Ram Van Gaman Path, if you remember, no, Bhagay's flagship project, right, uh, and also just managing the elections very badly, right, just the election management itself was so poor, you know, that you wonder, are these guys serious?

It's like, I mean, how Kamal Nath. Sabotage his own party, how allegedly are Gehlots, and I'm talking about the Congress, and you can say, Yeah, Congress is exactly like that kind of a party. But we see this across the board, to A, there is no ideological clarity, B, some very, very bad management. So, you come across wondering if it is really, uh, that, that the BJP has taken on the ideological space, it has occupied so much that there is no room, or whether that is an exaggeration that people are actually losing the battle more than them winning it.

Sagarika Ghose: So there are two things here, Shudipto. One is the concept of an opposition in a democracy. And the other, the other point is, what is the [00:24:00] opposition itself doing and the facts about the current opposition. Now the first thing we need to defend, I think, is multiparty democracy. Because if, If we become a one party state, one leader, one nation, one language, one clothes, one food, one way of thinking, one leader, one supreme leader, we are then a dictatorship.

So the one party state, I believe, has to be resisted at all costs. The multi party system must be defended, because the multi party system is what keeps democracy alive. One party state is autocracy, and also a one party state armed with a huge mandate is a predator on individual freedom. So, and we'll tell you what to eat, what to wear, what to love, who to marry, you know, how to live your life.

So the one party state must be resisted at all costs, right? So there is the concept of keeping alive multi party democracy. There, I think, the opposition has to [00:25:00] exist. It has to just exist. I mean, you, you cannot wish away the opposition. There must be an opposition, whether in the states, Whether at the national level, we have to have an opposition or a broad theoretical level, right?

Just so that multi party system exists. What the opposition is facing now? Huge challenges. But look at it. You've got the ED. 95 percent cases Uh, of the EDR against opposition members. Funds are being squeezed. Opposition chief ministers are being arrested. Hemant Soren, it has, it is unprecedented in the history of independent India that an opposition chief minister has actually been arrested.

Summon after summon, uh, uh, against Arvind Kejriwal. Uh, he, the LG snapping at his heels. You know, media, mainstream media squeezed out, squeezes out the opposition. There's no space for the opposition. Keep dumping on the opposition. Keep criticizing the opposition. Ra, ra, ra on the regime all the time. Ra, ra, ra on ruling party all the [00:26:00] time.

So what is the opposition? Look at the, look at where the opposition finds itself at this moment in time. You know, I mean, the opposition is literally, look at the way. Governors are acting. Governors in Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Bengal have been accused of playing a partisan role. You've seen how in full glare of the camera, a Chandigarh mayoral poll was actually defacing ballots to make a BJP win possible.

Right? So, in every which way, the opposition is being squeezed. The opposition is being pummeled relentlessly from all sides, all the time. The BJP is using state power, state machinery, to make politics impossible for the opposition. To make any kind of life, uh, impossible for the opposition. Only I will exist.

Only BJP will exist. Nobody else will exist. One leader, one party, one dress, one God, one religion, one language, one food, one dietary [00:27:00] choice. That's going to be the BJP. No one else has any rights. The, the, the, the, the, the identities of all, all of the states, the culture of the states, the leaders in the states, the, uh, parties in the states, none of that matters.

Only the BJP will, will, will survive. Now in a football game, let me give you an example. Do you follow football? Or do you follow cricket?

Sudipto Mondal: Both, more cricket, less football. Okay, so

Sagarika Ghose: in a cricket, let me, let's talk about a cricket match. In a cricket match, two teams agree on the rules. Do they agree on the rules or not?

The public also agrees on the rules. Now supposing, in the middle of the match, one team says, Okay, the rules have changed. I'm going to constantly hit sixes. And the referee is only going to allow my sixes. He won't allow your sixes. The umpire won't allow sixes from you. Or fours from you. The umpire will only allow sixes and fours from me.

Also, I will never get out. I'm never going to get out. Only you will get out. Your team will get out. You keep getting out, you keep [00:28:00] losing wickets, but I'm never going to lose wickets. And the media applauds this, saying, wow, wow, fantastic, masterstroke, the rules have been changed. Look at how the opposition is being beaten by this force.

But you're changing the rules of the game. You're not allowing a level playing field. You're saying that, A, there are no neutral umpires. The umpire is favoring one side, one side all the time, and showing, in a football game for example, showing the yellow card or the red card only to one team, only to the opposition.

The government is committing foul after foul after foul. No red card to the government, only red card to the opposition and the opposition parties. So the opposition, yes. There are numerous challenges. There are challenges of message, there are challenges of ideology, there are challenges of unity. Every political party faces a lot of challenges.

But look at what's happening to the opposition. I mean, the mantra of the BJP is opposition mukt Bharat. Why is that, how is that possible? That's not, that's not democratic. You can't [00:29:00] wish away the opposition. The opposition, in a democracy, the opposition has a formal established role. It's established role.

There's a leader of the opposition who is like a constitutional authority. He or she holds the government to question. He has a, he or she has a formal role in the ruling structure. The House, Parliament is the opposition's house. That's where the opposition holds the government to question. So you can't say, That there will only be, there won't be any opposition.

Then, then what are you? I mean, are you Jean Bédel, Bokassa, who's going to become Bokassa, the one crown yourself king and say, you know, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the king of, I'm the sort of, you know, I, I am the state. I am Louis XIV, L'Etat, Semois. I am the state. So, since I am the state, uh, nobody can say anything against me.

And if you say anything about me, you're anti national, you're Khan Market Gang, Latiens Gang, Utukre Tukre Gang, some other gang, [00:30:00] Naxal, Anarchist, Khalistani. You know, you're, you're, you're, what you're doing, Is you're robbing the opposition first of credibility with your social media army and name calling then you're demonizing, uh, the opposition and finally you're actually questioning the opposition's right to exist.

And this is happening also with protesters, right? You're demonizing protesters. Women wrestlers are protesting on the street. They're not, uh, they are actually being funded by the Congress and therefore they have to be hauled away humiliatingly. Farmers are protesting, protesting on the road. They're Khalistanis.

They're not genuine farmers. They're, they're anti national agents. They're anarchists. They have to also be, uh, tear gassed and, you know, nails have to be put and their, their passports have to be cancelled. You know, there was even a move to cancel the passports of the protesting farmers. Students are protesting.

Students must protest. Students are made to, students may be believing the wrong thing, but it's only by believing the wrong thing that you learn. You have, you have to have the liberty to be wrong. [00:31:00] So students are protesting, they are the Tukde Tukde gang, they have to be jailed. Somebody is protesting against C A N R C, they are anti nationals, they have to be jailed.

Somebody is protesting against, uh, climate change, there's a climate change activist who's, uh, circulating, uh, uh, some information on social media. She's, uh, she's, uh, she's, uh, she's, she's got a toolkit and, you know, Disha Ravi, she has to put Sedition. Sedition has been put on, uh, Disha Ravi. You know, and some other journalist is going to, Siddique Kapan is going to Hathras to cover a story.

You've imprisoned him on the UAPA. And, uh, terrorism laws. And he struggles to get bail. Why is someone like, uh, that activist, Omar Khalid, still in jail? Nobody knows. His bail plea has been rejected 14 times.

Sudipto Mondal: Right.

Sagarika Ghose: You know, so we'll look at the opposition leaders who are in jail. Manishya Soria is in jail, the Deputy Chief Minister of, uh, Delhi.

Hemant Sorian is in [00:32:00] jail. A whole lot of AAP ministers are in jail. So are you going to just jail and imprison anyone who questions the government? I mean, we are looking at a situation where you're squeezing, not just the opposition, but you're squeezing protest. And protest is a fundamental, you know, Uh, flow from the right of freedom of expression and right to life and liberty.

So you have to have the right to protest. Protest is a fundamental right. So, uh, what I'm trying to tell you, the upshot of all this is what I'm going to tell you. You're trying to say that

Sudipto Mondal: things are bad right now. No, I'm saying things are,

Sagarika Ghose: things are dark and the opposition is being squeezed from all sides.

So when we castigate the opposition for whatever it is and, you know, There are issues with every political party. And yes, you're right, I mean, perhaps there are organizational issues with some party, perhaps there are leadership challenges with some other party, perhaps there are, uh, there are, uh, Uh, message, message issues with other party.

There are all of these issues are there, but at the very [00:33:00] first, basic. Can these parties exist? They have to be allowed to exist. They're not even allowed to exist. So, you know, whatever, I'm saying we have to separate the two things. Let's have, do we, do we, we can, we can examine the opposition. Examine the problems that the opposition has.

Examine the problems of message and ideology. Examine the problems of organization. Yes, a lot of problems. The other point, the larger, more urgent point, is that they just have to be allowed to live. They have to be allowed to exist. One cannot cancel out the other, that the opposition is bad, they don't have a message, they don't have an ideology, they don't have leaders, so finish them off.

Inhalate them.

Sudipto Mondal: So I get that. That can't happen. I get that entire thing. That can't happen. And the reason I didn't interrupt you is because Sorry, I was No, no, no. It's important. Like I said, even before we started this discussion, for us to take every opportunity to list out all those things that you have Yeah.

Is important. Okay. And I suppose, in a way, defines the existence of outlets such as ours. You know, because most often, which think, which, which I and I [00:34:00] think

Sagarika Ghose: is very brave that you're giving me space to talk. No, no, you should. Absolutely doesn't. And that you're giving me a space know, I honestly, my is honestly, I wouldn't ha I wouldn't be able to say, say this on mainstream media.

Mm-Hmm. Would I be able to say all of this on mainstream media, but how many, how many, who are the corporates who've, uh, uh, contributed to PM cares or how many died in Covid? We, we, we can't ask these questions in mainstream media.

Sudipto Mondal: But, I, I, I do feel and this is an argument that is a running argument, okay, just the other day, uh, I was at Hafta with, uh, with Abhinandan and, uh, you know, we again started discussing the same thing, you know, where I was taking this position that, hey, we have to, uh, also while we are talking about communalism, when we are talking about dictatorships, alleged dictatorships and all that, we have to re investigate or we have to ask ourselves about the quality of our secularism.

Sagarika Ghose: The quality of our

Sudipto Mondal: secularism, uh, with Sitaram Yachuri, okay, it was not a very easy interview with him, you know, and, uh, the same thing kept coming up, you know, saying that, uh, why are you not talking about what, [00:35:00] uh, they are doing? The thing is, we have to hold people who are talking like you, people who are talking about secularisms to higher standards.

Mm hmm, mm hmm. Right? And that, I suppose, is also an important role while, yes, I mean, you cannot go after the opposition. If you don't, I suppose in terms of credibility, in terms of informing the public, giving them the right to know, you can't airbrush the failings of You can't, I mean, of course you have to Particularly in the case of a party like, uh, the TMC, if you'll allow me to say this, right?

Uh, because, uh, you know, I mean, you've barely been nominated and already you're in the middle of a storm because of I'll give you a second or two to talk about the Sandesh Khali thing, you know, and how it is symptomatic of politics in Bengal and that whoever comes over there does this kind of politics.

In fact, it is the method. It is the, it has become the nature of politics over there. And you are an avowed liberal. You say, you go as far as to even [00:36:00] say I'm a left liberal.

Sagarika Ghose: No, I'm not a left liberal.

Sudipto Mondal: No,

Sagarika Ghose: I'm not a left liberal at all. I'm a classical

Sudipto Mondal: liberal. Classical liberal. We'll not go the segue now, but I'm saying, okay, you're a liberal.

How does your liberal self not get a little, uh,

Sagarika Ghose: uncomfortable by this? Okay, that's a very good, that's a really good question. I think in every political party and in every, uh, democratic political party, there may be individuals within the party system who, uh, are not, uh, part of a certain way of thinking.

And, uh, there are those individuals who perhaps, uh, So, um, there are, there are some people in the party, who do commit mistakes, there are lumpen elements in every party, and uh, I think that at the end of the day, we have to look at how a political party responds. How does a political party respond?

Sudipto Mondal: You said that they, so how did the political party respond?

I saw your statements. You said, hey, that guy has been arrested, you know, he has been, he has been and you know, the law is taking its course, but Both of us can agree that [00:37:00] I am sure I'm now appealing to you as the journalist, right? Where you can agree that there was a delay. Okay, number one, you know, I have to say just quickly number two, you know There was this Prohibitory orders imposed over there as a result of which even journalists couldn't land up in jail Mmm hmm.

Mmm hmm. The opposition is trying to stir up trouble, so you can probably say for some time, stay out. So we are, that's why we are imposing preliminary orders. But the, the, the, the, the 144 section applied to anybody who wanted to go and find out what's happening over there.

Sagarika Ghose: No, applied to who? Applied to journalists who, Journalists complained very much.

who, they were not, Republic TV. Who are not journalists. The journalists of Republic TV, according to me, are not journalists. They are propagandists. They spread hate. And they are not fair or accurate. So when a propagandist goes to a particular place and demands the freedoms of the journalists, To practice hate and propaganda, he will invite consequences.

He or she will invite consequences. Let's leave Republic TV out of this. Because I don't believe that, you know, who is a [00:38:00] journalist? A journalist is someone who practices fair and accurate reporting. Right? You have to be fair, you have to be accurate. You can't go in there and say, Seeking to incite or seeking to, uh, uh, create propaganda or seeking to create situations that inflame because you want to hate for profit because you want TRPs and you want to hate.

You're saying only Republic

Sudipto Mondal: TV was not allowed over there.

Sagarika Ghose: I think there was a case of the Republic TV, uh, TV, TV, uh, TV journalists. I was not

Sudipto Mondal: there, so you tell me. Journalists were there, journalists were

Sagarika Ghose: there, YouTubers were there. And I think that it was important that the women come out and they were, certainly the mainstream media was there.

Sudipto Mondal: But, okay, so Rishkhali was, I didn't want to delve too much into it because it becomes. current and it's not this thing, but you know, if you if I wanted to take a broader view of things, you know we're talking isms. There appears to be a problem when it comes to secularism and the TMC, if you'll allow me to say this, because it seems that the two most vulnerable sections in Bengali society, which is And the Muslim Mm-hmm.[00:39:00]

have, have continued to, like, one thing that people say over there is that political violence is a reality in Bengal, but no matter which political entity is fighting, which two Iss are in, in a, in a path of collision, Raja Raja, they, it's the who's dying. And it, in it, it in effect means that Ali and Muslims are dying no matter what.

They're the ones who are the worst victims of the violence in sand. Kali also. It's a, I was looking up the demographics of that place. 65 percent is SCST in that place. And that vulnerability has not been addressed. And therefore. So, the claims to a superiorism, the claims to secularism, kind of ring a little hollow, no?

I don't think

Sagarika Ghose: so at all. I don't think so at all. See, because Sandesh

Sudipto Mondal: Khali is a one off thing. There are these patterns. So you, you know, I had this one case, I just got it down somewhere. Yeah, the Bhoktui Massacre, right? The Bhoktui Massacre, four, uh, Muslim homes were tossed, twelve individuals burned to death.

Sagarika Ghose: Mm-Hmm. .

Sudipto Mondal: And I don't think

Sagarika Ghose: that was, that was, uh, there was any TMC? Uh,

Sudipto Mondal: no. No. The [00:40:00] TMC uh, block committee president was arrested. The party remained largely silent on the issue. Case was transferred to the CBI by the Calcutta High Court, which determined that the police had not conducted an adequate inquiry.

In addition, uh, there are, you know, several atrocities now Look, don't

Sagarika Ghose: use incidents to justify Not incidence, no, no, no. Don't use incidence to stain or taint an entire party. Then should we say that there's a rape in Uttar Pradesh? No, no, it's the approach, it's the approach. There are, there are, uh, instances in Uttar Pradesh no.

So shouldn't that be laid on Mr. Modi's door?

Sudipto Mondal: That's what, that's what I'm saying. So there is, uh, growing, uh, anger in the Muslim community, okay. Against the TMC, I don't think so. I don't think so. The, the, the, uh, kind of actions that were taken against the ISF. What's your view of the ISF, by the way, is it, do you think it's like a right wing Muslim organization?

I think, I think,

Sagarika Ghose: look, I apply the test of constitutionality. If you, if you abide by the rules of the [00:41:00] constitution and in India, then certainly you must be allowed to function, whatever your religion, whatever your persuasion. If you do not abide by the rules of the constitution, then you, then you will have to face, So that is my take on, on, uh, on, uh, on, uh, entities that are allowed to exist and not allowed to exist.

But I would like to say that, you know, you make this point about secularism. I think Mamata Banerjee is the only leader, the only leader who had the guts. That's on 22nd February when the consecration of the 22nd January when the Ram Mandir consecration was happening. She let her actually let a public multi faith march down the streets of Calcutta with representatives of all faiths.

Also,

Sudipto Mondal: that was quite spectacular. I think that was

Sagarika Ghose: spectacular. And I also think she celebrates Christmas with the Christians. She celebrates Eid with the Muslims. Uh, Hindu festivals. She's a very devout Hindu. And in fact, there are many TMZ leaders who are very devout Hindus who, uh, who are worshipers of Kali.

And, um, uh, so, so in that sense, I think [00:42:00] Mamata Banerjee is truly a plural, multi faith leader. I think she genuinely is. And, and also, uh, I also think that, uh, that, you know, that, uh, uh, uh, uh, credit is often not given to, um, the fact that there are two Ms who stand by Mamata Banerjee election after election, which is Mahila, which, which had a huge, uh, she had a huge jump, um, uh, in the Mahila vote, uh, in the last election and Muslim.

I think they stand like, like sentinels by Mamata Banerjee, which is why the BJP is constantly painting, you know, using various words to describe, uh, to describe the secular forces. But again, you know, I would say that, that, you know, for me, I mean, um, think about it. A woman, a woman, a plebeian woman without any patronage, without any family, without any Mamata Banerjee, without any, any, any [00:43:00] dynastic, sets up a political startup.

Political startup. She's, you know, we talk about trolling on the internet and, you know, getting upset because of Twitter. She was literally beaten on the

Sudipto Mondal: street and that's beaten on the street.

Sagarika Ghose: She sets up a political startup. Yeah, she, she keeps it going. She keeps, she wins. She's a three time chief minister.

Uh, she wins and she gets, you know, she gets, there are attempts to bring her down even as chief minister. She's vilified. She's stereotyped.

Sudipto Mondal: And what I like about her personally, because I, I have a lot of, You know, anti caste, let's say, sympathies is that she was not an insider in your Bhadralok circles, by the way.

No,

Sagarika Ghose: she was not. She's a, she's a, she's a, she's a. Though she's

Sudipto Mondal: Banerjee by caste.

Sagarika Ghose: She's, she's a, she's a. The

Sudipto Mondal: Bhadralok look at her as, I mean, once upon a time she used to be, She was, she was, she was, she was, she

Sagarika Ghose: was abused by the left. I mean, the left, the so called progressive left leaders used to call her, call her all that.

So, I think that is a remarkable life story. So, I think, and I think to some extent, So [00:44:00] what

Sudipto Mondal: is secularism, right? That's why I said, should we now re investigate the quality of our secularism? We have to, we have to

Sagarika Ghose: look at secularism much more, as I say, as a doctrine of righteous administration. I've written about this.

in an article. I think that, for example, as a liberal, I do not approve of, for example, the ban on Salman Rushdie's satanic verses. I do not approve of bans on any books or plays that don't chime with secular opinion. For example, You wouldn't

Sudipto Mondal: agree, that's why. So, I'll give you an example. For example, the

Sagarika Ghose: film, the play, Mee Nathuram Godse Bolto Hai, right?

Now, Nathuram Godse is repulsive to me. He's, he's, he assassinated my hero. Which is Gandhi, but I would still not ban a play that says Bol To Hai. Because to me, that is a clamp down of freedom of speech. That's where I'm coming from. So

Sudipto Mondal: when I ask about the ISF, right, it's a Muslim political party, which is claiming that it's being persecuted by the TMC, not being allowed to organize.[00:45:00]

It's not allowed to grow. Its leaders have been arrested on flimsy cases. You have to

Sagarika Ghose: pass the test of constitutionality. So if you're passing, the test of constitutionality is upholding the rule of law, nonviolence, uh, inclusive membership for all. And abiding by So

Sudipto Mondal: you're saying they're violent and they're I'm not saying that.

I'm saying, are you

Sagarika Ghose: passing the test of constitutionality?

Sudipto Mondal: saying I don't

Sagarika Ghose: know. I have no idea. But I'm just saying that if a political party or any political entity But it, but I'm just saying every political I wouldn't want to get into specifics. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying that every political entity that exists in the, in the landscape must pass the test of constitutionality.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. You talked about three M's, two M's.

There is another M, which is on which you can't really, you know, you can't figure out which way it's going, which is the Motuwa.

Sagarika Ghose: The exceptional Motuwa leader is actually one of the, one of the other nominees with me. Nominees,

Sudipto Mondal: yeah. Mamata Bala Thakur, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's from Thakurwadi and her [00:46:00] relative is from, in the BJP.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know her

Sagarika Ghose: very, I mean, I, I was very impressed with her.

Sudipto Mondal: What's happening there? What's happening in UA politics? I wouldn't

Sagarika Ghose: like, I mean, maybe you'd speak, speak to Maha. She'd be able to tell you.

Sudipto Mondal: now I'll speak to you. You are from a party. I, I think, I think, I think it

Sagarika Ghose: would be better to get a real, uh, uh, insight into the Matua mage from, uh, MAA.

Sudipto Mondal: But did you ever report on them when you were in Germany? Not on

Sagarika Ghose: the Monte was, but uh, but of course I, I, I knew all about them. I read, I mean, I'm, I'm very conversant with community

Sudipto Mondal: politics. Cool. Okay. Um, now speaking of Motua, there is also the Rajbongshi, uh, there are also, there's a fairly large population of, uh, you know, SCs in, in, in, uh, in Bengal.

Uh, do you think, uh, some of the positions you've taken on reservations? Right. Mm-Hmm. . Now that you are no longer a journalist who can, who's entitled to her view, I think they hold,

Sagarika Ghose: you know, I consider myself an [00:47:00] ambe, right? Because I believe in social justice. Yes. I, I quote Ambe all the time, right? I, uh, I quote Ambe all the time.

I, I'm, uh, actually, uh, sort of, uh, you know, very, uh, admiring of agars, critique of, uh, hierarchy, uh, very admiring of his critique of, uh, of, um. Uh, certain orthodoxies and also of certain, uh, you know, social evils, uh, of, of, of Hindu society. So yeah, I think the Ambedkarism, Ambedkarism is a very fundamental

Sudipto Mondal: strand in Indian liberalism.

Okay. So your, your views on reservation, right? So we were, I was reading that section, uh, that you shared, you know, so a bunch of people are asking you about what is the liberal take on The question of affirmative action and you said this is my take there are some four pages Extracts from your book and you focus of course and they are you're you're quoting Rajaji.

You're quoting Kaka Khalekar, Kaka Khalekar said supposedly that reservation should not be on caste basis It should be on economic basis [00:48:00] and Rajaji was saying that You know, by, by making special privileges available, you are painting a bullseye on this community. They attract the eye of the rest of this society.

All of that. But what's your solution? Your solution is capacity building. And, uh, you know, there should be more colleges. There should be more institutions. Why have this feral competition? And then I was following the Twitter thread and someone compared you to the last queen of France. Marie Antoinette and said, you know, You know, I think Twitter, People are saying you don't have bread and you're saying why don't you eat cake.

No, I think

Sagarika Ghose: Twitter is not the place to have these debates, frankly.

Sudipto Mondal: In that metaphor, I feel there is at least a, you know, I mean, it's, it's nasty. Okay. But if you take away the nastiness, there is the point that's being made, which I suppose is that there isn't enough bread going around. Thank you. There are only that many institutions as of today, this academic [00:49:00] year has this many hundred thousand students who need to be admitted this year and social justice needs to be provided to them yesterday, not just today.

Absolutely. Okay. So from that perspective, when you come and say, let there be more colleges.

Sagarika Ghose: No, no, look, uh, I mean, at the end of the day, you're first, you asked me for a solution. So my solution is capacity building. But I would say that the challenges of social justice are multifarious, and they can't be addressed by tweet.

You know, so they can't be addressed. So now we can, when we, when we look at, uh, social justice, we look, we have to look at social justice for all, right, for all, uh, and I think that, uh, that's the premise of, of liberal democracy that we, we, we look at social justice for all, including the socially underprivileged, the economically underprivileged, the regionally underprivileged, the linguistically underprivileged, the gender underprivileged, the, uh, the, uh, You know, even ideas underprivileged.

There could be people who, there are groups who are left out because of a certain, [00:50:00] uh, the way they, uh, you know, the way, you know, for example, their sexuality. There are groups that are left out because of their ideas. There are groups that are left out because of, uh, because of geographical isolation.

There are all kinds of exclusions, right? So there are, in a country of multiple exclusions. And in a country of multiple, um, disability, multiple disadvantages, uh, we have to design policies which create social justice, deliver social justice in an incremental way. For every community, right? For all disadvantages to all disadvantages.

Now, what I was doing in in that particular book is in that particular para, that particular section, I was examining all the instrumentalities that exist. There is capacity building. There is reservation. There is, um, in fact, a community community, community oriented, uh, Initiatives. Uh, there are civil society initiatives, civil society [00:51:00] gets together and it doesn't without relying on the state.

Uh, there is, uh, there is state action. Uh, there is, uh, also, you know, I think, um, international connectivities, um, You know, international solidarities across borders where countries can combine under UN forums or under multilateral forums to create capacities for multiple disadvantages. So I was looking at a set of variables that can come into play looking at four different sets of disadvantages.

Reservations. Yes. Of course, there are, there are certain, there are important, uh, important instrument. Again, do they work for all disadvantages? Do they work for every set of exclusion? Does it work for, uh, every set of, uh, of, of, of lack of privilege? We have to examine that. Does capacity building work for every set of, uh, disadvantage?

We have to examine that. So, you know, the issue is really, Extremely complex and in a [00:52:00] mosaic of communities like ours in a kind of a with with competitive. It's a competitive. Actually, it's a competitive. It's a competitive mosaic. So in a competitive mosaic, we have to design. Now. I'm not a I'm not a I'm not a I'm not in government yet yet.

But if I were to design a policy of social justice, if I was if I was a social justice. Uh, if I was making social justice policy, um, I would first have multiple stakeholders talk to me about their disadvantages, right? All their disadvantages. And we would have to sort the. The solutions out through mutual dialogue and debate and consensus building.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. So that is my

Sagarika Ghose: position.

Sudipto Mondal: I'll respond to that. I'm sorry, I'm

Sagarika Ghose: not going to be pushed to a binary of yes and no.

Sudipto Mondal: No, no, no, no. Because

Sagarika Ghose: you see, the binary of yes and no, Uh, I think it's doing an injustice. Not at all, [00:53:00]

Sudipto Mondal: not at all. I'm not trying to push you into a binary. To the, to the,

Sagarika Ghose: to the issue.

Sudipto Mondal: Yeah, look, I'm, my only thing is, uh, you said there needs to be a discussion that.

My immediate, like, knee jerk reaction to it is, it's a little late in the day. You know, this is a discussion that has already

Sagarika Ghose: It is, yeah, it is, it is happening. It is, of course, yeah. But you know, I'm saying if I was a, if I was, if I was a, if I was in a policy making position, then I would get a discussion going.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. But, uh, this thing of competition that you refer to, right? Uh, there is, there is competition. Okay. Uh, but when you talk about affirmative action, when you talk about positive discrimination mm-hmm. , right? When you talk about, uh, representation in, in, in, within the frameworks of DEI mm-hmm. and all of that, you know, the question arises as to what is, and this applies, I suppose, to liberal liberalism when you talk about the economy also.

Mm-hmm. free competition. Right. Is there really, uh. No. Is there. No, one minute. Is there really. Is society free, firstly, for people to compete freely? Society is

Sagarika Ghose: not free, which is why we need dialogue.

Sudipto Mondal: [00:54:00] We need, we need interaction. So competition, when you say, when you make a call for competition, it's like No, I'm not

Sagarika Ghose: making a call for competition.

I'm recognizing competition.

Sudipto Mondal: Right.

Sagarika Ghose: Right? I'm recognizing that there is competitiveness between this mosaic of communities. And therefore, in order to militate against the competitiveness, we have to have First and foremost, dialogue. We can't be in silos abusing each other because you see what happens on Twitter is somebody's in a silo abusing me.

I'm in a silo giving my view. Somebody's in a silo. So unless there is cross silo dialogue and debate at the very start, at the very start, and I'm not going to be pushed to one line. I'm not going to be pushed to say yes or no. I'm not going to be pushed to come down on either side because these are these issues are too, too complex, you know, and they're too complex and they're too The sensitivities are too high.

So therefore, at the very start, if I was social justice minister, I would get a dialogue going.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay, fair. Now, I'll leave it at that, and you know, once you become this politician, who we [00:55:00] can actually take, when you have, now you don't even have a slate. We can't say you have a clean slate, you don't even have a slate.

No, I don't have a slate. Yet. So when your slate is a little, uh, populated, we'll go after you. Yeah, of

Sagarika Ghose: course, please. I welcome it. I totally welcome it will

Sudipto Mondal: be fair to do that. Yeah, I totally

Sagarika Ghose: welcome your questions. Now

Sudipto Mondal: I think the frame of this conversation or this interview itself is How does Sagarika think?

What's your ism? Right? So, by way of parting, if you'll allow me to, uh, just ask you to do on this, what do you call it? Rapid fire types, no? Yeah, yeah, please. So, these five big, four, five big isms of the 20th century, you saw the framework for the, uh, this election series, right? So, uh, how relevant are they in the 21st century is the, is the scope of the inquiry.

Now I want to ask, uh, Sagarika, I'll name one, each one of them. You say how you feel about them and where do you think they stand? Right. Okay. Uh, because it's Bengal and because you've only recently replaced them. Marxism?

Sagarika Ghose: Marxism, uh, too reliant on the state, not [00:56:00] enough emphasis on individual agency. Too reliant on the collective.

Sudipto Mondal: Any sympathies at all?

Sagarika Ghose: Sympathies for many, uh, for, uh, Marxist social positions on, uh, doing away with social evils, doing away with, uh, obscurantism, doing away with superstition, but, uh, the distrust of the individual. Makes me mistrustful of Marxism.

Sudipto Mondal: Political relevance? Electoral political relevance? None.

Sagarika Ghose: Really? Except in one state. I think Marxism is full of intellectuals, and intellectuals I don't think make good politicians. Okay.

Sudipto Mondal: Um, which one's next? Uh, you pick. Feminism.

Sagarika Ghose: Very relevant. I consider myself a feminist. And I think men should be feminists. I love to quote Gandhi that, uh, But can men

Sudipto Mondal: call themselves feminists?

Of course they can. You can have

Sagarika Ghose: feminist men, of course. You're not

Sudipto Mondal: appropriating.

Sagarika Ghose: Not at all. I mean, I think, you know, the, the, the, the, I love the concept. I love this concept of the girl dad, you know, that men who have daughters call themselves the girl dad. I think, I think, look, Gandhi used to [00:57:00] say that those who obstruct the rise of free independent women actually obstruct the rise of free independent men.

So, uh, so I think the solidarities across gender is very important. That's, that's feminism for me. And, um, gender solidarity, gender equality of all genders and, uh, solidarity

Sudipto Mondal: and liberalism. Your favorite is my

Sagarika Ghose: favorite is liberalism. I'm a classical liberal.

Sudipto Mondal: And do you think that people are still confused about what liberalism is?

I

Sagarika Ghose: think so. That's why I've written this book. So now the people should read my book and see, understand what is liberalism. Understand what is

Sudipto Mondal: liberalism?

Sagarika Ghose: Yeah. So this is why I'm a liberal and manifesto for Indians who believe in individual freedom.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay.

Sagarika Ghose: This is my book on liberalism. So that's what, the reason why I wrote this book is because when I would tell people that I'm a liberal, they would say like, what is that?

What is liberal? So then I realized that the Hindi word is Udarwadi. Udarwadi. Accepting. Tolerant. [00:58:00] Accepting. Tolerant. Um, negotiation. Dialogue. Reconciliation. Uh, uh, looking for the best in every And a little

Sudipto Mondal: elite also.

Sagarika Ghose: It's sadly, it's become elite. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Gandhi, you know, as I said, as I told you, Gandhi is not just the father of India, modern India.

Gandhi is the father of Indian liberalism. I tell everybody to read Gandhi if they want to know what is Indian liberalism. Indian liberalism is the So since you brought up Gandhi

Sudipto Mondal: anyway, we have just a minute or so to go. So Gandhiism versus Ambedkarism. Not versus. Gandhiism and Ambedkarism.

Sagarika Ghose: I don't want to put versus.

I mean, you know, Gandhi is my hero. I admire him. Ambedkar is another hero. I admire him. I believe that the, you know, I can consistently come down to it. I'm a believer in synthesis and dialogue. I don't want the Twitter driven silos of are you this or are [00:59:00] you that or are you saying no to this or yes to that.

No, uh, I, I, are you saying, you know, are you living in this moment? Polarized world of yes and no algorithm driven polarization is not. I'm, I'm resisting the social media algorithm driven polarization. That is, that is something I resist with all my heart and soul. So the dialogue of Gandhi and Ambedkar is what I'm after.

The dialogue of liberal and, uh, rightism or leftism or, you know, let, let's, let's, What is, what is a democratic mandate? A democratic mandate is a practical instrument by which we, which we use to engage in dialogue, not just with people who voted for us. But with people who didn't vote for us, right? So, I, I talk to people who may disagree with me, who may agree with me, but also, I want to be a politician who can engage with people who disagree with me.

What should not happen to a democratic [01:00:00] mandate is that it should not be weaponized. A mandate should not be weaponized to persecute, harass, and threaten those who did not vote for you or those who disagree with you, right?

Sudipto Mondal: Super. Okay. I think that's the show. But did you get your, do you think, do you think you got your say?

Do you think?

Sagarika Ghose: That was a wonderful show. I loved it. I love the questions. I love the way you approached it. So my entire thing is that you should

Sudipto Mondal: talk and that I should give

Sagarika Ghose: you a chance to talk. Cerebral interview. I mean, uh, yeah, really. I mean, normally it says bang, bang, bang on politics. No, no. Can I take a promise from

Sudipto Mondal: you?

So now, because this is an introduction of Sagarika, the politician. Okay. And like I said, your slate is not colourful yet. But as I

Sagarika Ghose: said, I continue to write. I continue to, to be, you know, I'm a Rajya Sabha member. So, I'm not in thick of things. But I predict that things will happen. You're in a party like

Sudipto Mondal: TMC.

You will be rolling your sleeves up and hitting the campaign trail, I'm sure. Yeah, [01:01:00] I

Sagarika Ghose: admire the TMC for its, for its formidable, uh, you know, for the formidable bulwark it is against the BJP. So, will you promise me, uh,

Sudipto Mondal: when you have a slate which is colorful enough, you'll promise me an interview. Sure, sure.

And it'll be, it'll be, I'll really go after you that time.

Sagarika Ghose: Please

Sudipto Mondal: do. Please do.

Sagarika Ghose: You know, I think, uh, I, I'm, I'm, I, I remain completely on the journalist side of Side, when it comes to questioning interrogation, I do not believe in executive overreach. So, you know, I'll be open to questions and you'll

Sudipto Mondal: speak about us in parliament.

Sagarika Ghose: I will, I will. I certainly will. I will certainly take up the course of journalists and media. I mean, this is, this is my, I mean, you guys are my first love. Oh, thank you. So, so of course I will. And, um. And, you know, I don't like to think of it as that I've left journalism or anything like that. I, I continue to, to write, but yes, I'm in party politics.

So I can't be a working journalist, but I continue to, to write. That's what, writing is, you know, I'm addicted to writing. I'm actually addicted to writing.

Sudipto Mondal: Okay. [01:02:00] But I'm still going to say farewell.

Sagarika Ghose: Okay. If you insist.

Sudipto Mondal: I mean, next time we're going to meet as journalists and politicians. Now this time we were like halfway.

Yes. Okay. But, uh, So, that was Sagarika Ghosh and her ISM. Some of you might have disagreed with what she said, some of you might have agreed. But I'm pretty sure all of you know where you stand at the end of this discussion and what's your ISM. Thank you. See you next time.

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.What’s Your Ism? Ep 3 feat. Suniti Bhikkuni on caste, gender and Buddhism.What’s Your Ism? Ep 5 feat. RS Praveen Kumar on anti-caste movement, switch to BRS.What’s Your Ism? Ep 6 feat. Sitaram Yechury on caste, China and ‘anti-Dalit’ communists

What’s Your Ism? Ep 4 feat. Sagarika Ghose on liberalism, BJP, media

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