What’s Your Ism? Ep 5 feat. RS Praveen Kumar on anti-caste movement, switch to BRS

RS Praveen Kumar, a former IPS officer, who had quit the civil services to join the Bahujan Samaj Party, has once again taken a u-turn. Last month, the popular Ambedkarite jumped to the BRS – a party he had earlier described as “casteist” and “feudal”. So what triggered this shift? What are his views on the anti-caste movement?     

In this episode of What’s Your Ism, Kumar spoke to The News Minute’s Sudipto Mondal about the relevance of BSP and Mayawati, how he reconciles his anti-caste ideology with the BRS, and the dynamics of Ambedkarite politics. 

“Bahujan Samaj Party is becoming less and less relevant,” says the former IPS officer, adding that things “have changed dramatically”. He also challenges the notion that the BRS is a party of Velama caste landlords.

The bureaucrat-turned-politician talks about BR Ambedkar’s ideas, initiatives under his non-profit educational organisation SWAERO, and the RSS’s “smear campaign”.

Watch.

Praveen Kumar 

Sudipto Mondal: [00:00:00] The most influential ism in the country today appears to be Hindutva.

It has taken a long time for this ideology to come of age. But what happened to the other ideological movements that began in the early 20th century? The RSS will turn a hundred years old next year. But, So will the Communist Party of India.

Ambedkarism, Marxism, Liberalism, Dravidianism, Feminism, Gandhism. What role are these great big isms of the 20th century playing in the 21st century? What relevance do they have today? I'm an atheist in the same way as I'm an a leprechaun. Why have there been casteism existing in the country still today?

Feminism 

Dr Praveen Kumar: by definition is the belief that men and women should have equal rights. The nature of the system is to be as mean and rotten [00:01:00] as you can, uh, to try to, uh, 

Sudipto Mondal: The national elections are around the corner. And what better time than now to talk about isms. I'm Sudipto Mandal and welcome to this special election series of What's Your Ism.

Today we're going to try and understand the ism of a former IPS officer, R. S. Praveen Kumar. Pravin Kumar was until recently, as all of you know, the rising star of the Baja Samage party. Uh, 10 days ago, he quit and joined the Bahara, and now is a nominee of the BRS from the Nagar constituency. Mr. Pravin Kumar, thank you for joining us.

How you feeling? 

Praveen Kumar: I'm doing great, and I'm feeling excited. , thank you very much, uh, to the News Minute, uh, for, uh, fi, uh, you know, finding some time to talk to me. 

Sudipto Mondal: Well, we have all the time, but, uh, it seems like your, uh, followers, your former followers feel like you don't have time for them. [00:02:00] There's a bit of a law and order situation on your, uh, Twitter, Twitter timeline.

People are rioting. Uh, are you hurt? I've seen some nasty comments on Twitter. 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I am not, uh, That hurt, uh, uh, you know, uh, but I am feeling, uh, you know, upset a little bit because, uh, my followers and the people who wished me very well and then people who have been guiding me all through. Uh, they have not been able to understand, uh, what I stand for and then, uh, my dreams and then my means to achieve those ends.

I think, uh, uh, there is a little bit of communication gap. I think it will be, uh, probably a temporary one. I think in the days to come definitely I will do well. Yeah, and I think they'll understand me. 

Sudipto Mondal: Okay, okay, because in your last interview you said, I remember, uh, you were speaking to my editor Dhanya Rajendran and you said Yes, yes.

He asked you a parting question about, uh, you know, whether youth [00:03:00] should join politics. And you said, uh, young people can't take, uh, accusations, they can't take criticism. They cannot be, they cannot take being called a fraud, uh, you know, and today there are people, you know, accusing you of that and that's why I, I, I wanted to check first if you're okay and how you're able to take this.

Dr Praveen Kumar: I. I force, although I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, uh, you know, uh, old timer in politics. I'm just a student learning politics, uh, you know, after 56 years of, uh, you know, life and then 26 years of public service in the government. So politics definitely is a, uh, new subject for me. And then I'm, I'm learning.

And then, but, uh, what, uh, helped me was, uh, what is helping me is, uh, the foresight I had, uh, You know, on the day when I took the decision to join Bhajan Samaj Party. And then, uh, on the foresight I've had on the [00:04:00] day when I decided to leave Bhajan Samaj Party. You know, 

Sudipto Mondal: I'll come to that part. And obviously, I mean, in an interview like this, at a time like this, there will be a lot of questions about BSP.

But before that, I want to beat around the bush a little bit, if you'll allow me. This show is about ideologies. Uh, Mr. Kumar, you know, and, uh, that is what I want to get at. And my first question to you is an ideological question. Uh, you've been now associated with the Ambedkarite anti caste struggle, both when you were in service through your SWERO activities and your social welfare schools, you've always been an avowed Ambedkarite.

And even when you quit the BSP, you said your ideology hasn't changed. So I want to know first up from you, what is your assessment of, uh, Ambedkarite politics in India today? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Ambedkarite politics, uh, are definitely at a crossroads, but, uh, there is light at the end of the tunnel. So, uh, some way or other, uh, people, uh, you know, the new things keep, uh, coming up and then, [00:05:00] uh, you know, uh, suddenly you lose hope at somewhere and then suddenly hope brings up at some other place.

So Ambedkarite politics are definitely very relevant and more relevant today in India because of the fascist forces, because of the, you know, rightist forces and the forces, uh, which want to. You know, make India as a uniform nation, you know, there is, there is, there is a, you know, kind of trend in India, which is happening.

That is a one nation, one religion, one nation, uh, you know, one tax, one nation, one law. So one nation, one election. So this one nation thing is something which is really troubling me. And this one nation slogan, uh, will make Ambedkarite politics more relevant than ever in this country. So, that's why Ambedkarite politics have gained more relevance now and people are [00:06:00] desperately, you know, getting back to Ambedkar and trying to understand his thoughts on idea of caste, idea of India, idea of inclusion, idea of liberty, idea of justice, idea of fraternity.

And, uh, idea of, uh, equality and equity. I think, uh, uh, Ambedkar is more relevant than ever in this country today. 

Sudipto Mondal: And, and when you say that, I mean, you said it in a broad sense without giving examples. When, when I was hoping, when I asked you the question, I was hoping you would be able to give me some examples.

Like, we have a lot of, uh, not a lot of, well, a few significant voices at the national level who speak from an Ambedkarite perspective. I don't want to name them. Uh, I was wondering if you want to name them. There's somebody in Maharashtra, there are people in UP, where do you, I mean there are of course international voices, today you have organizations such as the AIM, the AIC, uh, you recently visited the US, you were on an entire tour, right, uh, you went to the universities, you met, uh, Ambedkarites from the east coast, from the west coast, there are at least a [00:07:00] dozen Ambedkarite formations over there.

So I was really hoping that when you talk about assessment, you know, is there any example, any shout outs you want to give to, to, to formations out there? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I think, uh, you know, if you, if you ask me the prominent voices on Ambedkarite political front, you have Ram Dass Satwale, who, you know, who is leading a faction of a Republican Party of India, you know, uh, and the Republican Party of India is started by a person, none other than Ambedkar himself.

And then after, uh, His demise, the party got broken into multiple pieces with no definite goal to achieve. So then we have, uh, after, uh, you know, Manashree Kanshiramji got disillusioned with, uh, Uh, the Republican Party of India, and then it's, uh, uh, politics of subjugation so, and compromise. He started, uh, BAAF and then in 1970s, and then he started, uh, Belgian Samage party in 1984.

So we have Burgen Samage party still going strong. And then, uh, we have, uh, uh, Boian Samage party with the [00:08:00] national status at, uh, pan India level with, uh, up being their best. And then you have, uh, uh, you have Bja. You know, uh, who started, uh, you know, kind of, uh, you know, uh, kind of young Turk moment, if you, if you, if you, if you, you know, allow me to use that word.

So it's a kind of, uh, uh, insurgent, uh, kind of, uh, you know, politics in, uh, uh, Uttar Pradesh. So he started attracting a lot of youth and then he started beam army and then beam army slowly got transformed into Ajaad Samaj Party in, uh, this thing. Tirumavallan in the southern part of India. Then you have VCK.

So, and, uh, he also is a, he's also a very staunch Ambedkar. He also, he has his own brand of doing politics, not necessarily what the Bhajan Samaj Party has been doing. So, you know, similarly, we have, uh, you know, our brother, Jignesh Mewani, and, uh, who is, uh, Uh, you know, who is, uh, part of Congress party and [00:09:00] then, uh, who's also, uh, uh, uncompromising voice, uh, on, uh, various, uh, uh,

Then you have, uh, on the, you know, uh, the Eastern trend, you have, uh, uh, Ram Wan Raman and his legacy. He's being predicted by his one son, but to what extent, uh, we call them as Ambe or not, but Wan g also, when he was alive, he stood. Uh, by the rights of marginalized people as long as he was, uh, there. So there are, there are a lot of views, uh, in, uh, uh, Ambe right, uh, of, uh, politics with the, uh, marginalized sections as the base population.

And, uh, on the other hand, we have some hardcore ambe rights in, uh, uh, you know, the, uh, in, um. The regular, uh, parties, uh, like kind of, you know, uh, left to the center or right to the center or centrist parties. So, but their voices are not that prominent. So, these are some of the, you know, uh, voices that are, uh, you know, happening in India that, that [00:10:00] are, you know, popping up in India, uh, time and again.

So, but, uh, Uh, unfortunately, some parties have lost, uh, some parties are on the vein and some parties are, uh, you know, in the morning of their, uh, you know, political life and some parties are in the afternoon of their political life. And, uh, there are, you know, India is a very complex country, Siddhipta. So you cannot, uh, give a very general, uh, explanation or general description of any political movement because every state has a very distinct, uh, culture and then distinct, distinct, uh, socio political evolution and distinct, uh, Geography and then demography.

So, uh, no two states are alike by, you know, the, the by structure in India. So, uh, we have a movement in different, uh, shades in different, uh, states. So you're saying basically 

Sudipto Mondal: today, amate politics has become, in a sense the salt of the earth and it is. There's an element of it in every political formation.

It's, it's a kind of politics that you cannot avoid. But I, I found it interesting that, uh, from you went all over the country. [00:11:00] Okay. You gave many examples. You went to Maharashtra. You didn't mention Prakash Ambedkar, but you mentioned Athawale. Athawale, you also mentioned him uncritically. I'm noting that also, but my next question to you actually is about, uh, how things are aligned with all these leaders.

You know, I mean, I've been interacting with some of your supporters. Very 

Dr Praveen Kumar: sad. Sorry to interrupt, but, uh, uh, I was very eager to answer your question before you ended it. No, no, no. Because, uh, that, that has been nagging me, uh, to be very honest with you. Sad part of Ambedkarite politics in this country today is they have no common minimum program.

So although they are geographically separated, you know, uh, evolution wise, uh, there are different parts of the, in different stages of evolution. But, uh, when it comes to direction, when it comes to political strategy. So when it comes to common minimum program and the strategy and tactics, so they are not united.

That is very, very sad. So they have no common direction. Sometimes they're at [00:12:00] cross purposes with each other. So, uh, uh, when, who is a victim of all this, uh, non-cooperation. Among ambe politics is the, and the people who blindly believed ambe. Uh, people who blindly followed, not believed, blindly followed ambe writings and the people.

Who thought that Ambedkarite politics would one day emancipate them, liberate them from the yoke of, uh, you know, slavery and then oppression. So that is not happening. So this is, this is high time. that the, all the parties which call themselves as Ambedkarite parties, which somehow, you know, uh, draw their, uh, you know, uh, roots to, uh, Ambedkarite movement and Ambedkarite thinking.

Uh, I think, uh, they have to come together and then sit for a while and then, uh, sit across the table and then, uh, decide, uh, where they're heading, what direction should they be going in probably next 25 years from now. So that is not happening. That's what really pains me. As a result, you know, what happens?

The mainstream parties. Uh, you know, whichever party it [00:13:00] is, the mainstream parties, of course, they mention the name of Ambe. They, uh, you know, build the statues of Ambe and they named the programs of Ambe. They named the scholarships of mbe. And then, uh, there a lot of, uh, you know, Ambe naming and, uh, there is a lot of, uh, tokenization.

But, uh, uh, the real, the what ambi really wanted. That is not happening and that must happen only with the parties which, uh, which are built on the foundations of Ambedkar's, uh, thoughts, but that's not happening. So that's what really pains me and, uh, that's what gives me sleepless nights, uh, you know, every 

Sudipto Mondal: day.

Right. Right. No, I was, I was, uh, well, the big elephant of anti caste Ambedkarite politics is the BSP. Uh, at least, uh, that's what we believed until recently. Now, uh, I've been speaking to a few of your supporters. I was trying to prepare for this interview and they said something interesting. They said, uh, Anna, the BSP is sitting out of this election and they are not serious about contesting [00:14:00] this election and Behenji is not going to, uh, put her, uh, 100 percent into this election.

And, uh, we might see a situation where Azad, with the support of the Samajwadi party, he may feature in the parliament. If things, some things click into place, we might see Prakash Ambedkar in parliament. We'll see. You are contesting from a fairly strong constituency, we might see you in parliament, right?

Uh, and in all of this, I just wonder, you know, are we entering a, in your assessment, this is not me saying it, this is, uh, uh, you know, a sense I'm getting from some of your supporters and other people, are we entering a phase of post BSP anti caste politics or post Bhenji, post Mayavati anti caste politics with the emergence of, not just, uh, the people I named, I mean, there are others, I mean, there is Kharge, You know, there are all sorts of, uh, voices out there.

Do you think that we are entering a post Mayawati phase? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I think it's too early to say that, uh, uh, we are entering into a post Mayawati phase. I think, uh, Bhenji [00:15:00] Kumari Mayawati is, uh, still relevant because, you know, if you see the vote bank, uh, on which, uh, uh, Bhajan Samaj Party is sitting is, uh, almost close to 13 percent in Uttar Pradesh.

So, uh, despite a series of debacles in Uttar Pradesh, uh, Uh, Banji Kumari Mayawati, her party has been able to, you know, garner almost a 12. 8 percent of votes is something which is phenomenal. Even Congress with almost 120 years of, uh, uh, you know, the experience has not been able to get a 2 percent of vote bank in Uttar Pradesh, which has been its bastion till, uh, in 1980s.

But today, Bahinje Kumari Mayawati, even though she's out of power for the last 13 years, but still she's able to sit on that board bank. So we cannot say that we are, uh, we are entering into a post Mayawati phase. But what really troubles me is, uh, Bhajan Samaj Party, uh, is becoming, uh, less and less relevant, uh, in the rest of the [00:16:00] country.

Uh, that's what really, uh, you know, troubles me. So the, the top leadership of, uh, Bhajan Samaj Party, uh, not just, uh, ji. So I think the second rung leadership, the, the younger, a lot of, uh, the higher level executive, uh, higher level leadership, I think they should be, uh, moving like, uh, Manivar Sri Kanshi Ram.

So, and day in and day out, they should be going to the states and then they should be spreading his thoughts and then they should be spreading the ideologies and then they should be entering it with the local alliances. And then they should be, you know, you know, teaching the base population. about the.

about the ideas of Ambedkar and then the political praxis through which you have to realize the dreams of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, Mahatma Jyotirao Phule and all the icons of social justice. I think that is not happening in a BSP. So, in the meantime, there are a few parties like in southern India, prominently, I would say [00:17:00] Thirumavallan.

So, uh, Dr. Tol Thirumavallan has been able to stitch a local alliance very successfully and has been able to win about five seats in Tamil Nadu and then two MP seats in Tamil Nadu by entering into alliance with DMK. Then, uh, you know, similarly, uh, we tried to do the same thing in, uh, Langan as well, but unfortunately it got, uh, you know, shot down by No, we'll come to that.

We come to that doesn't Yeah, we'll come, we'll come to that. Yeah. Yeah, we'll come to that. But, but, you know, so I, I, I think, I think it's too early to call it as a post myopathy phase, but certainly, uh, the BSPs, uh, uh, the journey, uh, or BSPs progression into, uh, the rest of India. Uh, has been definitely hampered by the, uh, top leadership's, uh, inability to go beyond U Pradesh.

So, and then, uh, with, with u Pradesh itself, uh, in U Pradesh itself, party is, uh, facing, [00:18:00] uh, very, very steep, uh, uh, you know, gradient, uh, battle. So, uh, which is, uh, which is, which is really, you know, draining all the resources of the party. So, but the rest of the country is still in pain, but nobody's there to assuage the feelings and then, you know, give the solace.

to the, you know, the troubled approached uh, you know, legends in the rest of the country and the BSP has no great strength unlike U. P. Uh, in the rest of the country to would do this job. So that's, that's the real challenge. And that's where the other parties are entering into the fray and then trying to, uh, You know, reach out to the masses, uh, which, uh, Believed even today believe that Ambedkar is the or Ambedkar I thought is their savior So I I don't I don't totally agree with you that we have entered.

Oh, no. No, it's not me saying it But uh, but it is it is a it is a warning sign. It is a warning sign a red light is blinking On Bhajan Samaj party if you don't change your [00:19:00] strategy if you don't Adapt yourself to the local conditions in the rest of the country So you will, uh, you will, uh, end up as a Nokia mobile phone.

So what's that? That is a problem. You know, the day outdated Nokia, uh, you know, Nokia was very good with the C 1 3 0, double one. Double zero, then double 6, 3 0. Okay. Okay. Let stop you there. 90 and then suddenly Apple came in 2007. Okay. With touchscreen phone. And then Nokia is gone. I get it. I get it. So that shouldn't happen.

Yeah. So, 

Sudipto Mondal: okay. Okay. Let me, let me cut you there. And, uh, and you know, it's, it's quite. Uh, touching, you know, you, you, you speak of, uh, uh, Mayawati so fondly and, you know, it shows that there is definitely, you know, there's a, she's in your heart and things like that. But, uh, what I was proposing to you and what I asked you to respond to is not my, uh, opinion.

It was an opinion that I collated from your supporters. Now I also spoke to, I also spoke to BSP, uh, people, uh, particularly in the North in, in UP. [00:20:00] And they were saying that, wait for it. They, she might spring a surprise even now, which is, which is that, uh, there may be a few seats, uh, in, in UP where the opposition, the other coal, uh, opposition parties might actually, uh, step back and, uh, support Mayawati.

Now, if that were to be true, you know, and if we look at the worst case scenario, the worst case scenario for Praveen Kumar, let's say, or the other contestants, like where BSP lands up with about half a dozen seats. You are fighting in a seat which is said to be a BRS stronghold, but then you're up against, you're up against, uh, you know, somebody who is the son of a former MP.

You're up against, uh, the brother of the sitting Deputy Chief Minister, okay? And if things take a flip over there, you are back on the street. If Prakash Ambedkar doesn't make it out there, because there are things over there which are, there are many moving pieces in Maharashtra, these are the people who are most likely now to make it into Parliament.

[00:21:00] Let's say even Azad doesn't. You know, what does that scenario look like to you? Forget Prakash and forget Azad for a second. If you don't make it in this election, what's your political future? I am a police 

Dr Praveen Kumar: officer. You have been trained in all these strategic tactics. So I'm a police officer by training.

And, uh, I've seen the worst in my life. So, I am, I am always, uh, prepared for the worst, and then I will hope for the best, and then I work for the best. So, I, I, even if I, uh, lose this election, that's not going to dampen my spirit of, uh, realizing the dreams of, uh, Dr. uh, We are Ambedkar and then the following the praxis of Manivar Srikanth Sriram.

So absolutely not. And then we will find a way out. So it's not the world is not going to end after the 

Sudipto Mondal: Lok Sabha elections. When you say we, do you mean, uh, Praveen Kumar and the Swayaraj or Praveen Kumar and the B. R. Yes. 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Both Praveen Kumar and Sway Rose and then the platform in which I am currently, you know, [00:22:00] part of so we are not going to end our journey and then we are going to find ways and means of as to how to make Ambedkarite thoughts relevant and then how to make it very politically successful formula and then also realize the, you know, dreams of Dr.

B. R. Ambedkar on socio economic, educational and all other, you know, spaces. So I think I'm hopeful that we'll be able to make it through and then I, you know, I'll be very happy if Bhajan Samaj Party, you know, wins at least a couple of seats or maybe seven, eight seats, uh, you know, with a, with a, uh, with a image still Mayawati, you know.

Uh, G has, uh, you know, uh, in, up, but, uh, uh, going by the mood, uh, in the country and going by the mood, uh, which I, uh, you know, keep getting the information about. Uh, I don't think BSP will be able to, uh, be that successful as it was in 2019, uh, for the, because right now it has no, uh, alliance with any of the parties.

[00:23:00] And, uh, BJP with, uh, Ram Mandir, uh, as it's, uh, uh, you know, kind of a successful formula. Uh, it is, uh, uh, you know, going very strong in the area and then, you know, India alliance is not so strong. So, and, uh, Mayawati ji has no, uh, proper alliance with any of the parties. And I'm saying this, uh, you know, you, you talked about surprises in Uttar Pradesh and, uh, I'm not surprised because, uh, the first phase, uh, notification is over and the last day of nominations, uh, in eight districts of Uttar Pradesh, uh, has been over a couple of days ago and I did not find any.

I did not find any alliance, talk on alliance in Uttar Pradesh. So I think Benji Kumari Mayawati is trying to go, uh, go it alone. And then I think, uh, it's for the people of Uttar Pradesh to decide, uh, whether to make, uh, black right politics relevant or not, but, uh, it will be very nice if we can see a few, uh, BSP MLAs, uh, BSP MPs sitting in, uh, parliament.

And then if we are also, uh, you [00:24:00] know, if we also win in Southern India. Uh, you know, even from the different platform like brs or congress or whatever so but Our strength will grow when people who believe in Ambedkarite and people who believe in Ambedkarite politics. Our strength will grow and then we, we can definitely fight for the, you know, protection of constitution, fight for the rights of these people and fight for the future of the upcoming generations.

Yeah. 

Sudipto Mondal: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, you know, I just, before I move on, I want to ask one quick question. Theoretical question. Okay. Because, uh, you know, the, the one sentence is that you uttered after you quit just kept ringing in my ears, which is that I will continue to follow Bahujan ideology. Now, that immediately led me to wonder what does Bahujan constitute?

What does, see, because it was a term coined by Kanshi Ram. It has a certain connotation in that time. It talked about the coming together of the oppressed communities. But today, uh, I see at least in the last five, ten years, it has also come to mean non Brahmin, right? [00:25:00] Uh, which means that minus the one or two or three communities right on top, the rest is Bahujan.

The reason I say this is because I've heard Red D Kaas s favors in, in some other part, gda somewhere else. Uh, ts in Kerala referring to themselves as Bhuja, you know? And, uh, now that you're in a party ruled by, uh, a person who belongs to the Vema community, who, who, who, who, who commands a lot of respect and support from that community.

Do you see llama politics as be politics? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I don't call it as Velama politics. I think it's very erroneous to call a party which has been responsible for, you know, birth of a state called Telangana after almost 20 years of serious struggle. It's very narrow and it's very unfair to call it as Velama politics.

I think they have been Reddy's, they have been Madigas, Malas, Banjaras. And [00:26:00] BCs, huge numbers, Gowda, then Yadava, and all other, you know, people who have been part of this agitation, it just happened to be, KCR happened to be a Velama by caste, and his identity was not the identity of the movement as such. So it's, it's very unfair to say BRS as a Velama party.

However, KCR happened to be, uh, a person from Veloma community. That doesn't mean that, uh, you know, they, what is their, uh, you know, strength, I think more than one lakh, not more than one lakh, uh, population in the state of Telangana. So, and, but, uh, the entire Telangana movement was, uh, participated by entire, uh, you know, One can also say, one can 

Sudipto Mondal: also say in, you know, we, we come from an identity movement.

One can also say that the entire Telangana movement back from the days of the armed rebellion, uh, the Telangana armed uprising, or, you know, the different agitations that have happened over the decades, over almost a century now, [00:27:00] uh, were against Veloma hegemony. Were against the Dora, were against the person.

Well, against 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Doras. Against Doras and Velamas and ladies were the Doras. Velamas particularly. Velamas, not all Velamas were Doras, Sudipto. So, only a few landlords. So, they were called as Doras and then they were, you know, basically the agents of Nizam. Uh, in rural areas. Uh, so that's why they were called as Dura.

And then they used to rule on behalf of, uh, nija in, uh, in a rural part of Langan and then parts of Prh as well. So the entire separate, uh, Langan arms struggle and entire separate telang, particularly the entire GaN arms struggle, was against those, uh, landlords who controlled entire life in our villages, uh, both political life, economic life, and then social life.

So, the rebellion of Telangana was against those rudders and of course, partly Nizam who was [00:28:00] there. So, you are saying 

Sudipto Mondal: basically, from what you are saying now, it seems like it was a class struggle. And not an anti caste struggle. Is that what you're saying? Because there was a certain caste of people which were in control of land, which were in control of resources.

Dr Praveen Kumar: Absolutely, absolutely. It was a class struggle. It was not a caste struggle. There were Reddys in Telangana armed struggle, who were leading Telangana armed struggle. Rabi Nara and Reddy. Many Reddys like, you know, I don't, I don't have too many names on that front. There were Reddys, liberal Reddys who believed in communist ideology.

So they were leading, uh, telangana, you know, armed, uh, uh, struggle again is again, very reddi who believed in feudal, uh, you know, uh, uh, feudal, uh, feudalism basically. So the feudal way of, uh, dealing with the things in the villages. So I think ti RS uh, cannot be called as a, a bema party. Tis is a party of everybody.

So I think, uh, uh, that platform is, uh, going to go strong and, uh, I, I don't have, uh, you know, doubt [00:29:00] about it. 

Sudipto Mondal: Now, we just talked about the nature of, uh, the BRS's politics and you talked about how it is not a Vellama party, but whatever kind of party it is, I'm also interested in the kind of politics R S Praveen Kumar is playing inside BRS, right?

Uh, the last time you contested an election was the assembly election in Telangana and you made a statement by contesting from a general, uh, constituency. Right? And that's a very strong statement coming from an anti caste, it has an entire history of anti caste, uh, you know, sentiment, this thing of contesting from a general, uh, seat.

And now, you know, there's this, uh, in, in Hyderabad, here in Hyderabad, there's this saying, right? Mulla ki dawar masjid tag, you know, which is that you're stuck again back in a reserved seat. And there's a difference in the way you play politics in a reserved seat as opposed to how you wanted to play politics in a general seat.

In the general seat, what he was saying. Is that you want to consolidate the masses, the oppressed masses against A small minority of [00:30:00] oppressors. Now in a reserve seat, you're up against people from the oppressed communities. Whatever they may be. They may be good people, bad people, whatever, but they are nevertheless SC.

Right? You're going to be competing against SCs for the vote of the general population. And the general population could include Reddys, Velamas, people whose interests do not coincide with the interest of the oppressed. This whole change in Praveen Kumar's politics from seeking Bahujan votes Don't you think you'll now be in a, in a reserved constituency, you'll be seeking upper caste votes?

Dr Praveen Kumar: No, I'll be seeking everybody's votes, not just upper caste. No, of 

Sudipto Mondal: course, of course. No, no. No, no. But the pathology, the tragedy of a SC, ST, uh, reserved constituency is that the candidate who wins from that, and this is an old reality of, of, of reserved constituency politics, which is that the candidate is always a consensus candidate of the upper caste, the least problematic person.

Who threatens the upper caste least is the person who is agreeable to them and that's why they elect them. How [00:31:00] does that work? affect you now? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Uh, very good question. Thank you so very much for asking this question. I think, uh, I must answer this question, uh, with all the sincerity and honesty. Yeah. So you're right.

In those days, in olden days, uh, people wanted, uh, you know, the yes men and then there are people who can do their bidding and then people who can talk on their behalf and then people who can listen to them, basically listen in inverted commas and then the code. So, uh, but, uh, the things have changed dramatically now.

Most of the places, not all the places, I think it's again evolution. So in most of the places, uh, the, not just marginalized communities, Even, uh, the backward classes, other backward classes, even the so called upper caste, the general category population, which is, which are unreserved category, I would say, probably this is more scientific way of, uh, describing them.

So unreserved category and then the reserved category and the OBCs in the [00:32:00] tribes, they are looking for a candidate. who can be their uncompromising voice. I'm also really surprised. They are not looking for somebody who can always, uh, prostrate before a master just to become an MLA or just to become an MP.

No, they're not looking for such candidates. They are looking for a candidate who can be their voice in the constitutional bodies, be it an assembly or be it a parliament. So that way, I think we have come a long way in the evolution of, uh, you know, politics, particularly the schedule caste and schedule tribe reserved constituencies.

More and more educated people are joining the fray and electorate is preferring, uh, educated people To the illiterate, uh, innocent and, uh, S men, uh, who used to be, uh, you know, the trend in, uh, late 80s and then, uh, late 90s, but today, you know, by this, [00:33:00] uh, millennial generation and this 21st century. I think, uh, uh, you know, the awareness levels have become certainly high thanks to the technology and then thanks to social media, thanks to free internet and thanks to higher per capita incomes and then thanks to awareness about the rights and thanks to the lot of movements that are happening on technology front and then, uh, in the social media space.

I think, uh, people are preferring a good candidate over, uh, you know, the, uh, the illiterate and then the submissive candidates. So, uh, the, the, the unreserved category who have, generally speaking, who have, uh, more control over the resources, more control over the, you know, the politics in the villages and then politics in the assembly constituencies are left with no choice, uh, in, um, you know, in, uh, for example, if you take my Nagarkarnal for example.

So, uh, you know, the guy who is, uh, Pitch Taganeshmi from BJP is an MBA and another [00:34:00] guy from Congress is also a doctor. So and, uh, he's a, you only said he's a brother of a chief minister, a deputy chief minister and the other guy is a son of a, a former minister. No, no, not just a former minister, no, no, 

Sudipto Mondal: no, sir, not just a former minister.

He was in the BRS. Sitting MP from the BRS. Sitting MP. I'm sorry. I'm 

Dr Praveen Kumar: sorry. Sitting MP. And, uh, Praveen Kumar, uh, has been an IPS officer. Uh, for 26 years and then has been a leader of a Bajan Samaj party till recently. So if you, if they have to, you know, it's a very difficult choice, you know, for the people to make.

But however, I am hoping that, you know, because of my track record, uh, you know, in my earlier author as a social welfare secretary and earlier author as Bajan Samaj party and then earlier author as a. A fighter for the rights of, uh, most marginalized people. Ever since I joined politics, I think I'm hoping that people would, uh, you know, uh, vote me into, uh, parliament.

Uh, that's a hope with which I'm working. But, uh, uh, uh, the, the, the general [00:35:00] feeling about, uh, impression about, uh, this, uh, reserved consequences, I think, uh, we need to slowly change our opinion. That's, 

Sudipto Mondal: that's of the most interesting things I've heard. About, uh, uh, reserve constituencies, you know, this is the first time I'm seeing somebody describing it like this and saying that things are changing and these constituencies are not to be taken for granted.

Is that what you're saying? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Absolutely. That's the reason why I am exhorting all the youth of, uh, marginalized communities. Please do join politics. If you, you may have an IPS IAS officer, you may be a doctor, a lawyer, but do keep politics as a very good option, an option which can transform not just the country, but your community as well.

So transforming a community leads to transformation of a country. So, if you can't transform your community, you can't transform the country. That's what my belief is. 

Sudipto Mondal: Politics needs two things. One is ideology. [00:36:00] The other is strategy. 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Yes. 

Sudipto Mondal: Yeah. Now, strategically speaking, strategically speaking, there are people saying that you would have had a lot more, how do you put it, street cred, you know, a lot more, uh, you know, gravitas, uh, you know, if you had broken away from the BSP, all right, but started an independent party.

Probably I'll enter into a, a, a seat sharing arrangement with the BRS, you know, an alliance of some sort that would have given you greater autonomy than now being in, uh, in, within the BRS. And, you know, it is not described as the most democratic party. It is not the kind of party which might tolerate a flamboyant person like you.

So do you think it would have been a better strategy to have a, uh, separate, you know, Swaro's could have become a party, you think? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I think it's too early for Swaro's to become a party. Swaro's is basically a cultural movement. A movement which is [00:37:00] built on the foundations of self respect and identity and a brighter future.

So, I think Swaro's, it takes a lot of time for Swaro's to become a party. come independently into politics. Uh, but however, the question that you have asked is, uh, was it, you know, would it have been a better strategy? Yeah, wouldn't be a better strategy to start a new party. I think it's very tempting to start a new party.

There are probably lakhs of parties in this country, but, uh, not very, uh, not every party is very successful. And the party requires a lot of resources. Uh, party requires a Uh, you know, a lot of time to go to people and then it's the very evolution into a very good party takes sometimes a decade. Right now I don't have that much time, Sudipto, although it's a very tempting option.

So I think BRS is quite democratic enough to give space to a [00:38:00] person who believes in Bhajan ideology. The day, uh, I, uh, that's, that's a very conscious choice I have made, uh, by joining, uh, while joining, uh, Bharat Rashtra Samiti, uh, uh, I didn't join, uh, Congress. I didn't join Bharatiya Janata Party. I joined, uh, Bharat Rashtra Samiti only for one reason that they, they, they, their actions in the last 10 years.

have been towards secularism. During their time, we, our Telangana did not face any communal clashes and their actions were towards emancipation of marginalized communities to a greater extent, be it residential schools in huge numbers. It's a national model. So, be it, uh, you know, the various schemes, I'm not, uh, I'm not going into the details of the schemes.

On a broader front, a bird's eye view, so I think, uh, BRS is a platform, but definitely it's going to, you know, uh, give me a lot of space. [00:39:00] You know, they tolerated me as a Swero, as a head of the department, while I was preaching Ambedkarism, then while I was preaching the thoughts of Jayatirao Pule, then, um, all other icons of social justice in residential schools, this system tolerated me.

They never objected to, uh, you know, uh, this kind of, uh, preachings. So they gave me a lot of freedom. I think, uh, same freedom I'll get, uh, in, uh, um, uh, Bharata Rashtra Samtya as well. And then for me, Bahujan Vaad and Telangana Vaad, they are no way different. Telangana, Telangana struggle came into fore only when people realized that they are being plundered.

They are being taken for a ride by, uh, dominant Andhra rulers. So, for ages, then Bhajan Samaj Party, Bhajan politics came into fore only after people like Manishree Kanshiram, then others, uh, realized that, uh, this is not the way, vote hamara, raj tumhara, nahin chalega, nahin chalega. So we have been voting, but, uh, we have not [00:40:00] been getting share in the power.

So, and, uh, that is how Bhajan politics evolved. So in both the ideologies and both the streams, the common element is oppression. So I think both have a common space. I think, uh, uh, KCRG will not make that mistake of suppressing Bhaujan Vath as a subset of, uh, uh, you know, Telangana ideology. It's, I, I found 

Sudipto Mondal: it fascinating that this is probably the first time you have given him credit for not interfering with your work when you were, uh, the social welfare secretary.

Because I remember the last interview you gave to, uh, Dhanya. You, she asked you about KCR and things like that. And you said, well, In the entire period that I was there in that department, I might have met him some four, five times and we had very little interaction. Uh, so it's interesting that now, uh, you're giving some credit to him for allowing you.

Dr Praveen Kumar: I'm, I'm, I'm still, I'm still standing by the word, but I said there was no interference and then I have been allowed to do, but, uh, as a politician. I have fought again as the [00:41:00] BRS government in those days because of TSPSC, uh, you know, Telangana State Public Service Commission, uh, paper leakage scandals or whatever.

So as an opposition party leader, you have to be the voice of people, right? So you have no choice. Whoever is in power, you have to, you know, be the voice of people and then face the, you know, power center. 

Sudipto Mondal: Yeah. Right. No, uh, we'll move from this and get into the This talk that among Dalit Bahujans on social media, I've been speaking to some people in these WhatsApp groups and all that, you know, they're describing Praveen Kumar as a mastermind.

Okay. And the reason they say this is that with reference to the Swaro, okay, they say that when you joined the BSP, I believe, uh, the Swaro's did not flock en masse into the BSP, although they were, uh, they were completely loyal to you. You're joining the BSP did not result in the whole Swero flock getting into the BSP.

And, uh, you know, on occasion, I believe you have justified it saying that, [00:42:00] Hey, you know, ours is an education movement. And beyond that, people can, people can be part of different political formations. But then the reason they call you mastermind is because they say that, No, this is Praveen Kumar's strategy to ensure that the eggs are spread across.

That the Sweros will be a formation. Which will run like a kind of a intravenous system through the political body of Telangana. Do you, do you, do you agree? At least in reality the Sweros are spread across the board. Are you that mastermind? Is that your design? The very 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Swero, I am not the mastermind. So I am not, I am not the only one who is a part of evolution of Swero ideology.

But, uh, Swero, Sweros. strongly believe, uh, in their commandments. There are 10 self affirmations. One is I shall, I am not inferior to anyone. Second is I shall be the leader wherever I am. So, and I shall do what I love and [00:43:00] be different, and I shall neither beg nor cheat. I shall always think big and aim high.

I shall repay what I borrow. So, and I shall never give up. There are like ten commandments. So, swearers always believe in those commandments. Whether they are in BJP, whether they are in BRS, whether they are in Congress, or whether they are in any entity for that matter. Ro always try to be in, uh, you know, leadership portions.

And then I think, uh, uh, I have never asked any ro to follow me blindly. I think that is my strength. I have never asked them to follow me blindly. I have never asked them to, uh, you know, uh, come and then help me irrespective of their ideology. No. Whoever believed me blindly and then whoever believed in my path, whoever believed me, believed in my capabilities.

Only they, they have joined me when I joined BSP. But there were Ros while, while I was doing, uh, politics in BSP, there were Ros in big position in BRS as well. There were ROS in Congress as well. [00:44:00] So there was ROS in BJP also. So I, I don't, uh, I don't restrict, I don't, you know, I don't say that. Look, there is only one option that is Pravin Kumar.

No, uh, I'm, I'm the last person to say that. However, but wherever you are, be the best. Wherever you are, know the roots. Wherever you are, get back to the roots and then bring them up. Emancipate. And so as Deng Zio. 

Sudipto Mondal: And wherever you are, be anti caste. Ambe, right? Of course, yes. Yeah. So, you know, of course for me, I mean, uh, this is one thing I think I should, I mean, you say that you are not the only person responsible for the growth of Thero, whoever is, you know, for any person who've, uh, who, who, uh, follows the Antico follows Antico politics or is, is, is an ideal ideolog the existence of a organization like this, like this is very exciting, right?

Which is that it is, yes, it is like a progressive RSS kind of formation. In which, and I don't mean this in any negative sense obviously, I mean it in the sense that you will find RSS minded people in [00:45:00] every political party today and it is said that Nagpur controls not just one political party but multiple political parties because that's how they have fed these people into the parties and to that extent if there is a progressive force of the same nature it can only.

probably create good. So to that extent, congratulations 

Dr Praveen Kumar: on your I only wish that your words come true. I think they will come true. You're absolutely right. I, I want, uh, you know, Sweros is already spreading like a wildfire in the entire country. So, uh, I want to give, I don't want to give details, but Sweros always, you know, Swero ideology is built on self liberation.

You know, you don't have to, you don't have to look up to an authority. Uh, to liberate you. You have to liberate your own. You have to liberate on your own. You have to break chains on your own. And you have to think beyond what is visible, beyond infinity, and defy the gravity. So that is how Swaro's think.

And then fortunately, the Swaro [00:46:00] ideology took, is taking shape in the most marginalized sections of this country. Scheduled caste, scheduled tribes. And this is the ideology that is need of the hour for all marginalized sections in this country. It is, it is going beyond Abbe. Abe's, uh, Abe's life has been the life of struggle again for human dignity, struggle for equality, struggle for, you know, fraternity, but suros.

The idea of Suros is using Abe's ideas as foundations, but they're going beyond that, and then they're addressing the human being. Addressing the human being, human self, a human, what is your innate potential? Try to see that potential and break the chains and liberate yourself and then become the best.

Then world will prostrate before you. So that is what Swero ideology says. And that's how Malawat Purna in 2013 scaled Mount Everest at the [00:47:00] youngest age. That is a statement which Swero is making. Look, we may be poor, we may have been untouchables in the, you know, earlier times, but, uh, as the grit wise, As the brain wise, we are no less than you.

We are going to rule this world. We can, given an opportunity, we are going to go to the top of the world. Even if you don't give the opportunity, we are going to grab that opportunity with all the skills that we have. Maybe, maybe we are poor today, but tomorrow the whole world belongs to us and then we'll work towards that goal.

I think this is the ideology which every, uh, state in the country And every marginalized section in this Indian society must adopt. It is not against any religion. Although RSS has been very, very, you know, vocal about, you know, SWEROs and its ideological leanings, but that is only a smear campaign and RSS is known for that kind of, you know, fake news campaign.

So, and we are not really [00:48:00] worried about that. But SWERO is something which is, you know, we don't believe in formal structures like having an office and then having a table and a chair. No. Entire evolution and revolution happens in your brain. So, we connect all the brains, uh, in the marginalized sections and then drive them towards a very, very formidable goal and that's where the development happens and I'm very happy that you are saying and you could see the potential of this ideology.

Yes. 

Sudipto Mondal: And I can see that, uh, you know, you sound like a man who's talking about his first love, the Sweros. Right? Okay. Okay. Uh, now your second love, now the BRS is the third love. Your BSP, you know, now let's get into the actual nuts and bolts of why you quit. Um, uh, do you really stand by that statement that it was trying to go soft on the BJP?

You think the BSP was going soft, was compromising with the BJP? That has been the, [00:49:00] uh, the conversation around your, your exit. 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Let me, let me tell you the context in which I had to quit the BSP. See, uh, Southern part of India. Post, you know, the south of India's BSP has never been able to get the vote bank of 2 percent or 3%.

You know, 3% or 4%. So we have, uh, not been able to get a sizable number of MLAs and mps in. MPS gone. We have never been able to get sent one MP from Southern India, maybe one M please interrupt you. M 

Sudipto Mondal: can I please interrupt you here? I didn't interrupt you throughout, but when you get into this description of the party, and you know, uh, this was true even when you joined it.

What are we, what are we saying is true when you joined it. What happened when you quit? Did you think that, I mean, I have not heard you say it yet. I'm still looking for some quotes if there are some quotes out there, but your followers have been [00:50:00] very clear about the fact that we quit because the BSP was not okay with the alliance with the BRS.

It did not want us to go so hard in the elections. It wanted us, wanted us to take a step back and perhaps even lose the elections. Because it was compromising with the BJP, because it is even scared of those ED, IT raids and all that. This is the narrative that has emerged out of your exit. I'm not making things up.

You know it as well. You know, so let's address that. You know, what I'm trying 

Dr Praveen Kumar: to say, in the circumstances in which I had to leave the party, give the impression that, you know, party has been under pressure to call it off. I'm not, I'm not directly accusing the party that look, Narendra Modi has called you and then to fire the proposal of having an alliance.

That's why I'm leaving the party. I'm not saying that directly. What I'm trying to say, the field is forced to believe, and I'm very cautious in my [00:51:00] statement, the entire population in this country. And in the state of Telangana, he is forced to believe that the leadership is under pressure, uh, that, uh, to call it off or to call the alliance with the BRS.

So, uh, uh, Kavita's arrest by ED cannot be the sole reason. reason for calling off the alliance because as a state chief of BSP, I cannot meet any chief of any political party without the permission of my high command. First, please be clear about that. We have taken the permission of high command. This was discussed at length in our high command headquarters in Lucknow.

And, uh, we were given a go ahead to initiate the discussions with BRS. that permission was given only when BRS refused to [00:52:00] join either India Islands or NDA. I mean, BRS wanted to go it solo because BSP's policy is not to join either India or NDA. So that was a condition on which the permission was given to Dr.

R. S. Praveen Kumar to initiate talks. Then we have initiated talks. Then, you know, talks, you know, you propose something and then they give you something. So we proposed for three seats. And, uh, we asked for, you know, Nagar Kurnool, the one which I'm contesting currently. And Adilabad is another tribal constituency.

And, uh, one more constituency, whichever they are comfortable and whichever they are not sure of winning. So please give it to us and then we will field our candidate. Okay. Because we told that it's our national party. So initially, you know, we met, uh, their second rung leaders and third rung leaders. And once the atmosphere was ripe enough, we started.

Then we informed the high command and then joined, you know, a discussion with the KCRG. So and then finally both of us addressed the press conference and then in the meantime a tweet comes [00:53:00] from NG Kumari Mayawati that, you know, BSP is not in alliance with any of the parties in the country. So fake news of third front is really a fake news and then there is nothing like third front.

So we are going solo in the entire country. That's what the tweet said. Immediately the same evening, we called our headquarters through our national coordinator, uh, and, uh, central coordinator, sorry, central coordinator. And then we got it clarified that Telangana has been exempted from the national policy.

To that point, we have really very good clarity. Then after that, you know, the talks went ahead and then our central coordinator flew down from Karnataka to Hyderabad. And then three of us, we went to KCRG and then we spoke to him. And then again, we requested for three and then he settled at two. And finally we came back and then, you know, we spoke to Bamsef, we spoke to top leadership and then our entire state committee [00:54:00] has approved the proposal and everything.

Then finally the matter was. communicated to Banerjee Kumari Mayawati. And then Banerjee said, yes, go ahead, but good. So after that, uh, you know, we, on 15th March on the day of Mahanish Kanishi Ram's birthday and beginning of Bheem Deeksha, I declared, uh, to the entire world through my tweet, uh, that Banerjee Kumari Mayawati has approved.

And we are going to go with the BRS this time in alliance. And then we are fighting at two seats and they are fighting at 15 seats. Good. And BRS also, they gave a, uh, you know, uh, you know, a press statement or fine and evening at 5:00 PM Avita gets arrested by Ed. And, uh, 16th morning we get a call from a high command and, uh, high command says, uh, BRS is, uh, Brata party.

So, and then, uh, we don't want, uh, to align with this pre party anymore. So that's why call it off. So I said, uh, but, uh, we knew this already. [00:55:00] We knew this before, right? So when we, when you gave us permission to deal with this party and then by then, you know, Kalvakuntla Kavita's name has been popping up in, uh, uh, so called daily liquor scam for the last one year.

So, and BJP leaders have been making statements against her and then all political parties have been making statements. Her name was popping up in press time and again. So, and then, uh, every, it has been in everybody's knowledge. And suddenly, how come you find the BRS has brushed such a party just because its leader's daughter has been arrested and then even BSP also has been accused of scandals for no reason.

For no reason, when Banerjee Kumari Mayawati was the chief minister and then, you know, Taj corridor and this scam, that scam, even those, uh, you know, allegations also have been levelled against BSP. So it has become a common thing in India to accuse the rival political parties of some scandal, this scandal or that scandal, and then, you know, you know, [00:56:00] throw some mud on them and then use, uh, you know, agencies like ED and CBI to trouble them and then subjugate them, arm twist them.

To achieve their political end. Then I ask them, what is so new about this thing? What is so surprising about Ka la Harris? So I don't think, uh, we are taking a ation and then again, the edition has been forced upon me and I said, party high commendation is to call the alliance off and, uh, address a press conference and, uh, tell the world that, uh, you know, but we are not, we are going to go solo in, uh, LAN, Ghana Parliament elections.

Then, uh, I told, so since you're so worried about the image of the party. And since you are so worried about the image of the supreme leader of the party, so I don't want to spoil your image. I am, uh, leaving the party for good and then for your sake and for my sake. So, I don't want to, because see, I have defended the, you know, there was a lot of media backlash when I entered into alliance with BRS.

[00:57:00] So, but I defended our party stand against the background of Kanchiram's politics. I defended our party in the entire, you know, public domain. And suddenly you are asking me to cancel the lens for no reason. So that's why I said, no, I'm not going to go, uh, I'm not going to go to press conference. Instead, I'm going to tell the press that I'm not with BSP anymore.

While saying that, I also mentioned it is giving the impression. That, uh, you know, uh, BJP, uh, is, uh, we are under the pressure from, uh, BJP to cancel the alliance because Narendra Modi was sitting in Raj Bhavan on the 15th. Narendra Modi was sitting in Raj Bhavan and, uh, uh, suddenly the alliance has been called off.

And this is the only alliance, you know, Sudipto, I was so emotionally connected with the entire process, uh, through which the alliance has been, uh, uh, stitched. And today, you know, I have been asked to do the same thing in front of entire media. So I said, Banji, thank you very much for giving [00:58:00] me a great opportunity to lead this party.

And thank you very much for mentoring me in whatever manner you can. But, uh, today the condition has come to such an extent where I cannot continue as head of this party and do something which is against my conviction and against the principles of my credibility because I lose my credibility. As a leader, I need to have a credibility.

I gave a word to a party. And today you are asking me to call it off just because Uh, on one reason that, uh, their leader has been arrested by E. D. E. D. has arrested Hemant Soren. E. D. has arrested Arvind Kejriwal. E. D. is, uh, planning to arrest, uh, Veena Vijayan. E. D. has been planning to E. D. has arrested some XYG in every country.

And E. D. is not arresting people who are, you know, paying money to You know, uh, BJP are, you know, you know, falling in the line, uh, to ensure that BJP is always power, is always in power and center. So if, uh, if, uh, I think if our politics have to be based on what ED does every day, I think, uh, I am not for that kind of politics.

My politics are principles of, are based on principles of [00:59:00] credibility. And principles of conviction and principles of, uh, transparency. 

Sudipto Mondal: I, I heard you very carefully and I was wondering, you know, you, you, at least four, five times you mentioned the word credibility and, uh, automatically the question pops to the, to my mind, which is what credibility does the BRS have?

This is the party which unleashed the police in Hyderabad University campus at the peak of the Rohit Vemula movement, beat them black and blue, right, uh, compromised with people such as Bhandaru Dattatreya and the whole, you know, that whole lot of them. Uh, they've always kept us guessing about their alliance choices.

Who knows, there have been other examples in the country when the ED boot comes on their neck. They have been more than happy to also do business with the BJP. Now, of all those parties, of all those parties, you know, of all those parties, and I am not at all, I am not at all for a second soft padding the Congress or the Communists, okay.

But it looks like among [01:00:00] all those parties, I suppose they are the only two parties which may not enter into an alliance with the BJP. The BRS, for example, I just took some numbers, Dhania was like, you have to ask this question to Praveen Kumar. 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Yeah, please go 

Sudipto Mondal: ahead. So Dhania's question is that, you know, like, uh, nine BRS MPs, you know, uh, out of the nine BRS MPs, three joined the Congress and two joined the BJP.

Uh, yeah, and this is a constant back and forth that keeps happening. It's a party which is led by the ideology of money. We ourselves, I mean, we exposed, uh, certain. cases of corruption and corruption. Okay, fine. We'll, we'll let corruption be because, uh, be a common factor, a common denominator. kind of thing.

But ideologically speaking, you know, this is a party which could tomorrow jump and post poll, we might even see an alliance. Where does that leave your credibility, Mr. Praveen Kumar? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: No, no, uh, uh, I'm, I'm not talking about the track record of the party and then the, uh, I'm not going into that. [01:01:00] No, no, I'm 

Sudipto Mondal: just saying, I'm not talking, the track record tells us what?

That this is also a very, very high, highly unstable formation in terms of ideology. It could go once again to the BJP. And a Baja Wadi, an Ambe, an anti cast person who has, you know, taken these very strident positions on the question of caste communalism in the past, yes. Mm-Hmm. , where will that leave you if that happens?

I think 

Dr Praveen Kumar: only time will, uh, only time will decide, uh, where that will leave me. Uh, but, uh, as, as of now, uh, my current, uh, you know, platform is, uh, uh, RA and then I'm very happy with the platform and, uh. I'm getting a lot of good vibes. Like you have rightly said, you know, a lot of people are leaving the party, uh, in the search of greener pastures.

Uh, but, uh, I don't think I should be doing that. And that's where the credibility comes into picture because I gave a word to party, irrespective of what Banerjee Kumari Mayawati says. [01:02:00] Uh, we are, we are, we are here to work with you only to protect Bahujan Vaad in Telangana. Please try to understand this.

I have not entered into an alliance. with KCR only for myself or only for my personal ambitions. So I have entered into an alliance with KCR only to protect Bahujan Vaad and make it more relevant, make it, make the voices of Bahujans heard in, Bahujans of Telangana heard in Parliament of this country.

That was my intention. So, and I'm happy with the platform and then KCR was gracious enough to give me that opportunity to, you know, find space in that party and then, uh, find space for many people who followed me to the, when I joined the party. And then I think, uh, uh, definitely, it's going to be a very good, uh, you know, decision.

But as you rightly said, when, uh, BRS, uh, uh, [01:03:00] BRS takes, if at all, I don't think that will any day come because if you go by the track record of, uh, Mr. KCR and the way he fought for Telangana, the way he worked out, you know, Uh, you know, at a very constitutional level, uh, to create a state of telangana and then the lay a solid foundation for a, a stronger telangana.

I don't think KCR will make the folly of, uh, aligning with the, uh, BJP, uh, at the cost of, uh, uh, you know, losing, uh, people of telangana and then people of telangana generally, they don't appreciate, uh, this kind of, uh, communal and then fascist, uh, politics. So, and then, uh, they, they have never given, uh, BJP, uh, space beyond what they deserve.

Sudipto Mondal: Now, I mean, this is my, uh, might be my last question and in this I, I, I want to do, uh, I found a very interesting description and this is a result of conversations that I've been having with people in the movement, you know, I was speaking to Suraj Yengde, you know, and he was talking about how can you, uh, underestimate the BSP and both of us were, you [01:04:00] know, talking about our experiences of covering or following the party.

And, uh, you know, it is after talking to him that I was reminded that yes, BSP is Actually, wherever I have gone in India reporting, I have found that there are three fundamental pillars at the grassroots of Indian politics. You have the Hindu right, you have the Hindu left, which is you'll have a communist party office in pretty much every district.

You go to Kashmir, you go to Manipur, you'll go to, you'll find a communist office. And the third pillar is the anti caste movement. It need not in all cases be an Ambedkarite movement. Like there is an anti caste consciousness in Kargil, let's say. Okay. among the tribal Muslims. Right? There is an anti caste consciousness in different parts of the country which may not be Ambedkarite but this third pillar exists.

And the BSP exists as a missionary movement. Which is trying to in a sense, and when I say missionary, these are some of the, some terms might be familiar to you. You know, it is almost like a party that is trying to unite the lost tribes of Israel, right? Which is [01:05:00] that, these are people who are on the fringes, like Baba Sai Mahamedkar described them as the broken men, who live outside the villages, and that it is the mission, and you yourself, last time you were talking about, described yourself as a missionary, after you lost the assembly elections.

This is, Mission work, right? Now in this mission work, I again want to invoke a, uh, a kind of a formula or a talisman that a lot of, uh, Ambedkarites like to quote, which is educate, organize, agitate. Now what if I put to you that given the present condition in India, a party like the BSP which does not have 1400 to 1300 crores like the BRS which came in through electoral bonds like the TNC, like the Congress, it has a small kitty.

For which it has to use for the benefit of a very large population. And right now, it is biding its time, waiting for the time to strike. Right now, it is following two formulas, which is educate and organize. The time for agitation will come and there will be a time when, you [01:06:00] know, when the opportunity opportune time arrives, the strike will happen.

I mean, there is that entire narrative about the BSP, right. That it is today in education and organizing mode, and that is not untrue, okay. Wherever I have gone, in district level, if I, I went to Chhattisgarh to cover the election, the BSP is a non entity over there. But when I wanted to get a counter narrative about Baghel, who did I go to?

I went to the BSP people. A small office, a small group of people, ideologically committed, right? So, how do you respond to all of this? I went into a monologue, I'm sorry. What do you say? 

Dr Praveen Kumar: Yeah, you seem to be a diehard optimist and then I'm Oh no, no, I'm not an 

Sudipto Mondal: optimist. I'm just sharing something that somebody said to me.

I'm having a bunch of discussions with anti caste people. I think, 

Dr Praveen Kumar: I think, 

Sudipto Mondal: I 

Dr Praveen Kumar: think, uh, I wish what all you have said just now to be true. Uh, which, uh, which is partly true and partly, you know, false as well. So, [01:07:00] uh, It is true because the cadres of BSP, uh, realize that, uh, education and organization are very, very important.

Like, you know, Gautam, Lord Gautam Buddha said Sangha. So, uh, Sangha is nothing but organizing. organizing and education, you know, Gnanam. You have to give that Gnanam, you know, the knowledge you have to give to people. So, all, most of the BSP cadres across the country, you know, both South of India and North of India, they realize that this education and organization is very important.

What is really, you know, disappointing to me personally is the leadership. I am not just talking about the Bhenji alone, but general leadership is not into the, you know, is not realizing the [01:08:00] importance of agitation. That's where the people like Chandrasekhar Ajat and, uh, you know, all other people have come into picture.

It's very comfortable and then it's very easy to say that, look, uh, we are a missionary party. Then we have to be, we have to be, uh, you know, continuously educating people and then organizing them and then wait for our time. You know, Sudipto, my understanding is, unless we consciously work for that moment, that moment will never come.

So mere education, mere organizing won't help. We have to, we have to make them realize that they have to fight for power. That fighting spirit has been unfortunately lacking, uh, in, uh, Bahujan brand of politics, you know, post, uh, 2012. I repeat, post 2012, the fighting spirit of, uh, Bahujan Samaj Party's politics.

Like, uh, Bahenji, and I think it is very [01:09:00] unfair to blame Bahenji Kumari Mayawati for this. We have to blame ourselves. Her time is over, like, you know, I mean, her best time has been over. So, I think, uh, it is very unfair for this generation to ask, uh, Bahenji To come onto the streets at the age of, uh, 69 or 70, and then, uh, fight for, uh, the rights of, uh, most marginalized in this country whose percentage is about 25 to 30, so, or maybe 80.

So it is not correct, the, the, the responsibility of, uh, that, uh, agitating must be taken by the younger generation. Unfortunately, nobody is trying to organize the Tanger generation. That's why we started the Sparrows Network, not on a political front, to be very honest. Political, there is a huge vacuum in the country to organize that [01:10:00] younger generation.

To educate, organize, and then ensure that they agitate for their rights. Agitate for political power. You know, Dr. P. R. Ambedkar said political power is the master key. Once you go to the chair, you can ensure the directive principles of state policy and the fundamental rights. Everything is implemented in total to the best of the, uh, you know, best of best extent.

But that is not happening. Younger generation is totally disconnected. Why is it we are not organizing the younger generation? Since we are not organizing them, all the exploitative parties, I don't want to name them, all the parties which are responsible for the dire conditions of marginalized sections in this country are exploiting these youth and then driving them in a different direction.

That is a danger sign for the country. You will have at the end of the day, maybe after 30 years from now, maybe after 50 years from now, if we don't change our strategy and tactics. Rich will become ultra rich and [01:11:00] poor will become ultra poor and poor will never know who is exploiting them and they will never be able to see each other and this, uh, this is going to be a huge problem and then the fault lines will be very, very deeper and there will be a civil war in this country.

So that's my fear. So I don't want that to happen. The, the, then by the time you realize that you have lost so much. In this life and in this journey, in this very country in which you are born, we are, you are Mool Nivasi of this country and you lost everything. And, uh, you know, the 1 percent is enjoying at your, you know, expense.

Uh, and when the day you realize and then if you don't have any political entity to drive you, uh, you know, towards, uh, power, I think, uh, you're lost. I don't want that dismemberment of, uh, disintegration and dismemberment of a body, uh, you know, anti caste movement. So that the, I don't want that to happen.

We are, we are a majority, you know, we are 99 percent and we can't afford to, and we have, you know, [01:12:00] we have the luxury of, uh, So many people sacrificing their valuable lives for emancipation, for social justice, for justice, equality, liberty, fraternity, knowledge, all that. goes down the drain if you don't, uh, you know, organize, educate and agitate.

So, and agitate, when I say agitate, it's not just going to the roads and then shouting slogans and getting hit by, you know, a lattice of policemen. No, that is not agitation. You have to ensure either to election politics or otherwise, you know, non electoral politics. Everywhere you have to show your, you know, your, your power.

So then only, uh, you, as a collective power, then only your interests will be protected. Otherwise, uh, you know, otherwise you will be a refugee in your own motherland. That is my, you know, uh, that is my fear, uh, which gives me sleepless nights. 

Sudipto Mondal: You will be a refugee in your own country if you don't agitate.

Yeah. Yes. R. S. Praveen Kumar [01:13:00] and his ism. Some of you might have agreed with him, some of you might have disagreed. But the message he wants to leave you with is that education, is An organization is not the only, uh, uh, route to emancipation, that agitation is also a path that you should tread, and, uh, like I said, you might have agreed or disagreed with him, but that was Praveen Kumar and his ism.

I hope listening to him gave you a sense of your ism and where you stand. Until next time, I'm Sudipto Mandal and that was RS Praveen Kumar.

Dr Praveen Kumar: News Laundry and The News Minute are possible because of our paying subscribers. We don't run on corporate or government ads. You can be part of changing the news model. Go to newslaundry. com slash subscription or thenewsminute. com slash subscription. Be part of the community that pays to keep news [01:14:00] independent.

For the smoothest podcast experience, download News Laundry's app. Watch our shows Listen to our podcast, read our reports, stay informed, pay for news, protect democracy, save the world.